Building an HDZeta with my Nomad

I’ll start off by saying I’ve not spent 6 months working on BitSetter… Hold my beer…


It’s an interesting project seems cool… I’ve been down this road.

If I were you I’d look at revising the hardware spec. Things like 20mm ball screws won’t make much if any impact on a build like this & you might be waiting 30 days just to get these. You run a stock size ball screw which introduces limitations later on.

There are some elements which will not be possible to achieve using a nomad. The HDZero used many plates larger than the mainly things like the Z axis plates. However I think the boldest part is 30 days. I would have thought cutting 12mm plate on the nomad it will take 24+ hours per part. Maybe longer.

Best of luck.

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I think the biggest problem with the HDZero that I’ve seen so far is ballscrew bearings–there have been a number of failed bearings, and it’s not clear if it’s just a bad batch or a (minor) design issue. They’re not that hard to swap.

1500mm is starting to get kind of long for a 16mm ballscrew. My steppers can drive it ~1/3rd faster than it can spin without resonance problems. Basically, you’re limited to ~15,000 mm/min with a 1500mm long 1610 ballscrew.

I’d love to see more Z clearance; 8" or so would be nice, but obviously that’d come with a stability cost.

IMHO the biggest issue is really GRBL. There’s no obvious, easy upgrade path from GRBL to anything slightly larger without adding a lot of cost and complexity. I’ve been slowly working on moving mine to LinuxCNC, which is taking a lot of time and money. In theory, you could probably do that for ~$500 (vs $150 for a CNC Xpro w/ GRBL), but my config is a bit more complex than that.

Do I need to do any disassembly of my SO3 XL to mount the C3D BeerHolder?

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This is awesome! Keep us updated on your progress!

Maybe you could hit up the community for any large parts that aren’t possible on the nomad?

Dear God that excites me…

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Would something like this address the resonance issues of the HDZero?

I don’t think better couplings would help, at least not much. It’s not a flaw in the machine design, it’s fundamental to long ballscrews. See https://www.hiwin.com/pdf/ballscrews.pdf and search for “Critical Speed”. It should be approximately 2.71*10^8 * diameter/length^2 RPM. Hiwin suggests staying under 80% of that RPM; for 16mm ballscrews 1500mm long, that’s around 1540 RPM. Not surprisingly, I start having problems around 1600 RPM.

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FWIW, I did look at getting a set of those a while back, but they’re basically custom-order items. I couldn’t find any distributors in the US with stock, and no one really wanted to sell me 3 of them.

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Hey Scott. Would you say that this has an impact on the machine’s ability to cut (motion control, calculation speed, EMI issues) or is this more of an expanded feature-list thing (I know you’ve got some ATC going on)?

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Julien,
This design is different than Luke’s HDZero, it doesn’t have the extended X-axis gantry supports. It may at some point in the future, but for now, the X-axis sits on a 1/2" aluminum plate the sits directly on the Y-axis extrusions. That keeps the rigidity as high as possible while keeping the vertical support plate small. So far there are 2 plates that are slightly too large for the Nomad to cut in one pass, but I have a couple of options for still getting those accomplished on the stock Nomad.

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Luke, Thanks for the response.

For the initial prototype machine I will be using 1610 ball screws on X and Y and 1605 on Z. But for the linear rails, I am using 20mm. Linear rails, slides, ball screws, and all the supporting hardware was ordered yesterday and was in stock. 8 to 14 days for delivery. Looking to get extrusions and aluminum stock ordered by Friday.

As for the Nomad not being up for the challenge, me and my Nomad accept that challenge. I have already determined all plates except 2 can be cut on the Nomad. The 2 that are slightly larger than the Nomad working area, will hang 53mm over the front build plate. then be flipped (kind of like a flip jig) and the remaining area machined. I also have one other trick up my sleeve to accomplish these to large plates on the Nomad, but I’ll save that one for when I post the actual build footage.

The 30 day target is doable, that is the least of my worries. As long at my order from China gets her in no more than the 14 days as promised. Everything else is easily achievable in that time frame. So far that hardest problem has been modeling all of the components in Fusion 360. The Chinese specs can be a real beast to make sense of. The cuts on the Nomad will be slow for sure, but most wont take 24 hours. Their simple profile cuts and clearing out the holes. Timing wise, it helps that it is the slow part of the year and I will be able to spend some time on this project every day until about the 2nd week of January.

One question, did you anodize your parts yourself or did you have them done professionally? I’m considering doing mine myself, but wondered your thoughts.

Cheers

Scott,

I ordered the upgraded bearings for all of my ballscrews. I don’t know if that will make a difference or not, but I’m hopping it does. One question on the HDZero, is one end bearing on each ballscrew floating? Or are they both fixed? I saw a video on Youtube where a guy was having bearing problems because they were fixed on both ends. He converted one end to floating and it solved the problem. From the CAD files I saw of the HDZero, its hard to tell, but it kind of looks like both ends are fixed. For my first machine, the ball screw lengths are 600mm and 1100mm so I should be fine with the 1610’s. When I build the larger 1500mm machine, I will upgrade the ballscrews to 2010’s and the motors NEMA 34’s. The 2010’s should address the whip on the longer 1500mm screws.

The 6" clearance I’ll get on the initial machine is enough for most if not all of my tasks. I do have an easy way to get the clearance up to 12" while maintaining the same rigidity. But I can’t do that on the Nomad. So maybe I’ll use the HDZeta to build it’s own upgrade down the road.

I am interested to hear more about your issues with GBRL. The Carbide products run off of GBRL and I haven’t had many issues with it. Is the issue the Xpro or the or is it CNC JS? I’d like to hear more about what isn’t working for you. I don’t plan on ordering the controller for a week or 2, so I still have some time to make changes there.

The HDZ includes a mounting plate with eccentric nuts for the original spindle mount, but the new 65 mm and 80 mm mounts do not use them.
I think a new design with eccentrics and possibly additional dial in adjustments for squaring would be most beneficial. I feel that the twist and tighten dial in method is a big step backwards.

Thanks for the feedback BubbyDog. My design doesn’t have eccentric nuts anywhere in it. There is no need for eccentric nuts since all 3 axis are constrained and guided by Hiwin style 20mm linear rails and bearings. I remember the trouble I had with the eccentric nuts on the Z axis and getting things squared up was a nightmare. Once I had them aligned, I never had any problems with them, but I know others have. Carbide 3D did a fantastic job of balancing cost vs performance in the SO3 with the wheel rollers on rails, but for my machine I wanted something with the stiffness and precision of the Nomad with cutting area of an SO3. I also wanted to be able to run a 2.2kw spindle without the fear of deflecting the machine when running at cutting loads it is capable of handling.

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My big issue with GRBL is simply that we’ve reached 100% of what it can do, and what it can ever do. GRBL is tightly tied to the ATmega 328P microcontroller, and GRBL uses every single byte of EEPROM, every single pin (multiple times over), and more or less 100% of the RAM. There’s no way to expand it at all, even slightly, without removing features.

So: no 4th axis. No feedback from closed-loop encoders. No tool changing. No useful error reporting beyond what we have today. No persistent tool length probing. And, in general, no way to add custom logic of any sort in the controller.

It’s really impressive what GRBL can accomplish with the tiny little controller that it uses (roughly similar to a Commodore 64), but that doesn’t change the fact that you can buy 100x the microcontroller today for basically the same cost. Optimizing things to run on a tiny, underpowered CPU doesn’t save any money for anyone.

There are a handful of open-source projects that aim to build something a bit bigger than GRBL but still similar in spirit. Look at CNCjs for a reasonable list of them. Unfortunately, from what I can see, none of them are actually useful yet, because you can’t buy boards to run them on.

Unfortunately, pretty much every reasonable microcontroller larger than the 328P has moved to 3.3V logic instead of 5V logic, so you end up needing glue chips when talking to stepper drivers, limit switches, and so forth. This means that you can’t really just use an off-the-shelf microcontroller board to drive a CNC with anything bigger than GRBL. You need to design a board explicitly for driving steppers, etc. That’s not a huge deal–almost no one uses GRBL with an Arduino Uno board, although you could–but it means that you’ll either need to be able to build your own PCBs or buy someone else’s. And from what I can see, no one is actually selling anything useful. There are a bunch of options with webpages showing their designs, but no actual products that anyone can buy.

I’m kind of grumpy about software controller options for GRBL, too. I want to like CNCjs, but its UI has a few horrific issues that have cost me at least $100 in carbide. For example, Z+, Z-, and Z0 are right next to each other. I’ve had times when I’ve been fine-tuning my Z height before zeroing it, adjusting 0.1mm at a time, and then missed Z- and hit Z0, which has attempted to move the Z axis down 20mm. Snap. X and Y aren’t much better. It’s fixable, but it annoys me.

Fundamentally, I’ve reached the point where I don’t really think that running a CNC from a microcontroller actually makes a lot of sense for people who are willing to build (and modify) their own CNC. It’s great if you’re building a packaged product like a Shapeoko, but as soon as you start go expand at all, the microcontroller options just fall apart, while the computer options just look better and better.

Realistically speaking, you can’t use any modern CNC without a computer and a monitor attached. Either your CNC controller is a computer with a monitor, or you have a CNC controller plus a computer sitting right there. Saying “no computer required” doesn’t actually save anyone any money. I’m increasingly thinking that something like LinuxCNC running on a Raspberry Pi 4 with an Ethernet breakout board (like a Mesa 7i76e) is flat out a better option for most people. The biggest problem is that setting it up is non-trivial. However, it doesn’t really need to be. There’s no reason someone couldn’t make a Raspberry Pi SD card image that provides a pre-configured 3 or 4 axis CNC with UI. Just plug it in, wire up the Ethernet, connect stepper drivers, limit switches, and the spindle to the Mesa board, and then plug in an HDMI monitor and USB keyboard. If you already have external stepper drivers and a 24V power supply, then this really only costs $250 or so, which isn’t a ton more than a CNC XPro. It’s dramatically more flexible, expandable, etc. But it’s also more of a pain to maintain over time. There will be software upgrades, bug fixes, backups, etc. But, there will also be bad bearings, broken wires, shorts caused by stray chunks of aluminum, broken collets–CNCs aren’t really maintenance-free devices. Needing a bit of software TLC shouldn’t be a deal breaker.

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I run my Shapeoko 3 XXL under LinuxCNC, with a Gecko540 and mesa 5i25(pci-express version of 7i76, running in an old gaming pc)

I have barely scratched the surface but LinuxCNC is insanely configurable, and for me has been nothing but reliable.

GRBL and the CM board make a lot of sense for the Shapeoko3, until there’s a 4th axis it’s a very straightforward, cheap option.

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@ScottLaird What about something like the Masso? Ever looked into it?

@DCFYI Ever get yours up and running?

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Scott, thanks for all of the info. I’ll look into the Mesa 7i76e as a possible option. I do like the idea of having the controller on my home network. While I have a couple of Raspberry Pi’s setting around, I will also look into putting Linux CNC on an old laptop. The idea of having a SD card with an image pre-configured for Linux CNC is a good approach too. You have given me several good options to consider that are more flexible than GBRL without being that much more expensive.

One is fixed with another semi floating - however there was a way to adjust then tension on the ball screws which might have been what this video refers to - not sure, don’t think I have seen it.

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Status Update
Fusion 360 CAD files are nearly complete. Still have a little work to do on the Z-axis, the cable chain guide supports, and the limit switches. Most materials have been ordered and are on the way. Should be able to start machining end plates within a week. I’ll record some video of the Nomad doing the heavy lifting to share with the community. The good news is that the Z height will be 200.7mm or just a smidge over 7.9".

Also of interest is that Fusion is showing the frame to weigh in at 163kg or 360lbs without the Z-axis and spindle. All that mass should be very helpful to dampen vibrations. This beast is earning it’s “HD” badge.

Here are some pics of the CAD work.

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Wow, impressive, it really looks very

sturdy. What are the X&Y dimensions?

It certainly will not move off the table by itself, you will need equipment to move it.