- spelling monster interjection: “allot” relates to allotments. A whole heap is simple “a lot”.
I don’t think I’d mind spending $2000-$3000 extra if I could get a functional CNC-system up and running. I really like how the Masso Touch looks as well: Buy MASSO G3-TOUCH best CNC Mill and CNC Router Controller 2021 also check CNC Mill and CNC Router Controller software Latest Price, Manufacturer & Supplier, specification,Reviews at Masso.
How difficult would it be to change from controlling the Shapeoko Pro with the build-in board to the Masso Touch? Because that is what needs to be done right? Is the Masso G3 made to support ATC or is that something you’d have to do yourself in a hack’ish way?
I’m beginning to wonder at what stage a ‘hobby’ turns into a ‘profession’?
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Summarised the last 4 years of my life.
I think 3k in minimum. Most decent ATC’s that I’ve seen cost 2k + vfd and the masso alone is almost 1k. All the bits such as drivers, wires, all add up.
I don’t want to say it’s easy as I can’t comment on your technical ability but it is quite straight forward. You would need to read through allot of the masso documentation - the documentation assumes you are familiar with cnc terms and electronics. The limit switches will hook right up to it but you would need new drivers, power supply, to get the main machine working. The ATC setup is all pre configured, you just select your setup and make sure all the sensors are hooked up correctly and that your tools/locations are configured.
I feel like I’m encouraging this but I will re-iterate this is allot of work and effort…
https://www.instagram.com/p/CMkRq6SDH7n/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
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If you go ATC, there are extra things you need:
- A compressor with a clean compressed air output (my spindle requires a 5µm particle filter)
- Solenoid air valves
- Air hoses
- A second 65mm spindle holder to mount vertically above the first
- A Z-axis that can support two 65mm spindle holders (which I don’t believe is sold)
- (num tools)
You’re basically doing what I initially did to my Nomad but with Masso instead of EdingCNC. You need to:
- Tear out the Carbide Motion board and electronics
- Replace the stepper motors, or make an adapter so that you can connect the existing stepper motors to your new stepper motor drivers
- Buy new stepper motor drivers
- Wire the stepper motors to the drivers
- Wire the drivers to the Masso Touch
- Wire the drivers to a new power supply
- Wire the VFD to the Masso Touch
Have a read through the documentation to get a feel for it. Doesn’t look too bad but I don’t run Masso myself.
Given everything above, I’m not sure if $2000-$3000 is enough. You’re looking at:
- 1500€ for the spindle setup without ATC
- ~800€ for the Masso Touch
- ~800€ for the ATC adapter
That’s already 3100€ and you still need:
- Stepper motor drivers
- A second 65mm spindle holder
- A beefier Z-axis that can hold the ATC and the spindle (which I don’t believe exists, you’ll need to design and build that yourself)
- A decent compressor and/or air filter for it
- Solenoids
- Tool holders
Given the amount of time and money you’re looking at spending, are you really sure a Shapeoko is the way to go for you? If you want a nice controller, ATC and so on and so forth, have you considered buying a machine that already has those features, like a Tormach, Syil or a second hand machine?
And I don’t think this question has been asked: what do you intend to do with your new machine? And is this your first CNC?
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I will note that the expense and complexity of automatic tool changing was what drove me to select a Mafell FM 1000 WS (didn’t get the PV version because it would have required working out how to connect to the BitRunner adapter and have that handle 220V while still working w/ my dust extractor):
it was pretty straight-forward:
- mount using mounting plate
- make different thickness dust shoe plates for different lengths of endmill stickout
- connect to 110V–220V step-up transformer
- plug in to BitRunner
- plug in to power sensing outlet on dust extractor
While not automatic, tool changes are quick and just about effortless, and complex test jobs no longer have me feeling as if I’m spending more time wrenching than cutting.
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Thanks a lot for the thorough overview.
I’ve been looking at the Stepcrafts machines all day and I think I might end up buying one of their setups. I can get an equivalent machine (even a bit bigger) (https://shop.stepcraft-systems.com/CNC-Router-M1000-Construction-Kit) with automatic tool change (Tool Magazine for M.700 CNC Router I STEPCRAFT, 329,00 €) and an AMB milling motor (AMB Milling Motor 1050 FME-1 DI 230V I STEPCRAFT, 329,00 €) for about 5000-6000 euros. It’s definitely more than the $2800 Shapeoko Pro, but the ATC will make my life a lot easier. The reason for upgrading is because I want to set up a smaller production of certain items, so being able to start the machine and then being able to do other things in the workshop for a long while is really helpful.
I think I might end up going with the Stepcraft and then keep the Shapeoko for making new prototypes.
Does anyone have any experience with the Stepcraft machines or with AMB milling motor?
I have an AMB FME1050 and it’s OK, it now lives in a cupboard though.
It seems well made, good speed control, little vibration, the detachable cord is nice. Pretty good torque, it never really bogged down on a standard Shapeoko. If you’re sticking to reasonably light, high RPM cuts in wood or plastics it’s probably fine. The collets are captive in the nut which means no fighting to get them out for tool changes.
The collets are expensive and non-standard though and the noise was enough to drive me mad, it’s a screamer.
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Lol! This is why I choose not to do some things on my machine. I have an avenue to sell lots of wood trinkets that could be made on my SO3 but I run a carpentry business as my day job. My little CNC is an escape for me so I actively avoid doing anything related to carpentry on it.
This seems like a good option for you. If you have a way to make money consistently with it, ATC is great. A system that already has it all figured out is even better.
I don’t know if it’s been mentioned yet, but here’s a complete ATC Spindle package for AVID CNCs. This guy seems happy with his. In the US you’d be able to claim them as a business expenses for income tax purposes. Could you do that?
The setup you included doesn’t include a toolchanger. The “automatic tool change” you linked to is just the magazine, that’s not enough to actually set up a machine with ATC. The AMB milling motor you linked also doesn’t support ATC.
Maybe you meant to link this?
This would be a big step back from Shapeoko Pro and Mechatron though. The M1000 has linear rails like the Shapeoko Pro but it comes with IGUS leadscrews (which means plastic nuts of all things) which will have some degree of backlash.
I also have a lot less trust in the design of the Stepcraft gantry. There’s much higher separation between the X/Z axis assembly and the Y-axis, which means more cantilevering and less rigidity.
The motor you’re looking at is going to be loud as hell and the runout is sky high compared to a spindle.
I think the really big question here is what do you want the machine for?
Are you going to be milling wood? Plastic? Metal? Is it costmetic stuff like signs or coasters where precision isn’t super duper important or do you have dreams of milling mechanical parts that ball bearings will be pressed into?
The more you can tell us about what you want to do, the better we can help you do it.
I have this package on a 5x10 machine at work. It works well but you are on your own for the software setup in Mach 4. I got ours working but it took me a couple weeks to first learn how to configure and program Mach 4 and then setup and test our ATC.
There’s a lot in the links I posted that is missing to make the full ATC setup. Everything is on the site though and it’s an ATC system that is already working well from what I understand.
Right now I’m milling in wood (https://holgersindbaek.com/), but would love to do some aluminum products in the future. I don’t plan on milling any mechanical parts though.
Stepcraft has an upgrade set for the linear rails that should remove backlash though: HIWIN® Ball Screw Set for M.1000 I STEPCRAFT, 799,00 €. Might be overkill when milling in wood though?
How loud do you think the AMB motor is compared to the Makita I’m using now? How do you think the runout is compared to the Makita?
Edit: I just looked it up myself. I had to look both at the US and EU Stepcraft site: Milling Spindle Comparison | Stepcraft, Inc. - Overview Milling Motors. It seems that the Dewalt (I’m guessing the Makita will have the same specs) have a run-out of 0.025mm and the AMB 1050 FME-1 DI has a run-out of 0.15mm. That seems like a lot! Wouldn’t that be noticeable with the naked eye?
Edit 2: @WillAdams What’s your experience with runout on your Mafell? I’m guessing that the Mafell has the same 0.0004" runout as the AMB 1050 FME-1. Have you noticed a difference from the Makita?
I think you need to reconsider your issues with tool-changing. You brought it up in the other thread too. It’s a minor part of CNC’ing and at this level not worth the money.
I understand you probably want to have a "lay the stock down and ‘print it’ " sort of approach to improve throughput and be able to do other things in the (very noisy) shop.
You might be better off trying to come up with toolpaths that will cut 4 trays with each tool at one time. This will reduce the number of tool changes.
But perhaps don’t focus on tool changes. They are minor pain points.
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Runout seems to be very low — I don’t have a dial indicator (guess I should get one) — the product description says:
FM 1000 milling motors boast a maximum concentricity of less than 0.05mm at a distance of 25mm (or less than 0.01mm in the cone).
which seems to match the AMB specification — this is complicated by my having the quick change unit and having to use reducing bushings for tooling smaller than 8mm.
As I’ve noted elsewhere, it was an indulgence on my part, and hard to justify financially.
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Does it feel more or less powerful than the Makita? Can you mill things faster with the Mafell?
A free supply of ‘project’ timber, then 
In that case I think you have pretty low-end needs. A regular Shapeoko, Pro or Stepcraft machine should do just fine.
And I really don’t think you need an ATC for that. Looking at your box, I think you should be able to do that with around two tools: one flat, one ball.
For your set or forget desire, you’re really looking to decrease “tool changes per piece” and there are two ways to do that:
- Decrease the tool changes (e.g. an ATC)
- Increase the work done each time
I’d suggest looking at the latter. For example something like this can handle more of your trays at a similarish price to a Shapeoko Pro.
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It ought to be more powerful, but I haven’t tried to push it, since all I wanted was the convenience, and it’s easier for me to limit it to the same sort of cutting forces I’d use with the Makita so that I don’t have to worry about which machine I’m running a given file on.
Yes, that would be noticeable to the naked eye. A standard piece of paper is about 0.003"-0.004" thick. A runout of 0.15mm (about 0.006") would be enough for me to look elsewhere. I run mostly aluminum and that is way too much especially when using small tools.