Please explain to me why Carbide refuses to do closed loop stepper motors? It would be great if they would. At least offer it as an upgrade.
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Most likely because it would require a driver board re-design & software development to properly utilize & enable. The current firmwares for the driver board max out the available memory resources as it is. Closed-loop steppers aren’t going to help much with a control system that can’t utilize them. People who really want to go closed-loop either buy a different CNC(more expensive) or replace the entire drive/control system(more expensive & lots of time re-bulidng the machine).
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That’s part of the problem is the control system and board are a super cheap design. Would love to see them design a better system as an upgrade. I really don’t want to have to do the Masso conversion. It doesn’t seem like Shapeoko wants to cater to the professional only the hobbiest. Its a shame the make a great machine but the electronics leave something to be desired.
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I would totally go for a Beer System upgrade! Nice little function to grab a beer & pop it open for me before it starts a long-haul job…
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Joel that cracked me up. That’s what happens when I type and don’t wear my readers. lol
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An upgraded board would be a nice upgrade I would purchase for sure. I myself would like to see additional drivers so i can add a true 4th axis in front of my machine. I am rocking a Shapoko 3 xxl though so even if they did it would probably not be for me. Sadly it is one of the things holding me back from 5.1 pro (that and $$). Hard to justify upgrading from the 3 for me even with the significant increase in rigidity.
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I would also love to see a controller upgrade. From things like a real 4th axis to improvements in gcode coverage, it would be a real treat. Also quieter drivers would be pretty incredible.
In terms of mechanics of the machine though, I’m of the opinion that a closed loop system wouldn’t be all that much of an improvement.
I think the only thing it would buy you is an auto-stop if you lost steps? But if that’s not a problem you run into, it’s just a more expensive motor for not much benefit.
Could just be that I’m missing something though. What are the material reasons that a closed loop stepper would be a good upgrade?
I ask because there are upgrade paths for the motors alone but I’m not sure what they would offer unless the entire control system was upgraded with it.
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Pretty much nailed it. Closed loop vs open loop, for the average person is like the debate between 2WD vs AWD/4WD cars. One might feel like you have a safety net or be more capable, but for everyday things, unless you’re deliberately pushing the limits, it really doesn’t matter.
But I am curious @fostinoguitars, what you believe is stopping a machine like a Shapeoko from being used in a professional capacity? Because there are machine much more expensive than a Shapeoko that are still open loop. Is it purely peace of mind? Slightly faster cutting? What can’t you do with a Shapeoko now? That would help us understand your perspective about what the key selling point of CL would be and perhaps inform our approach going forward…
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David, there is the Masso system, semi-professional controller, with closed loop motor options available. IMO the C3D hardware is an excellent base for an upgrade to the MASSO-world, I saw different machines working, the C3D appeared optimal for a small professional shop on low level serial production level and all below. (of course not for cabinet making, and also no stock thicker than appr. 2").
I already would have considered an upgrade. I do not dare to even think of doing the wiring again. That is the reason why I do not consider this path.
For C3D it would be a lot of re-design on the controller and software side.
Yes, the controller is the weak part. Even if they ship a replacement (what they did for me some times) it means to pause one’s work for some days waiting for the shipment. On the other hand the controller sits in a price level that it does not harm to have one (or 2, like me 
) in the spare part box. Interestingly since I have these controllers available for a quick swap I never again needed to change it 
…
And: I developed a habit where I designed my stuff in a way that the machine is if ever possible not brought to it’s mechanical limits: for me it means that I solved the slot / contour / pocket issue. If there is never resistance that high that the machine looses steps a closed loop motor IMO (please correct me when I’m wrong) is not necessary.
There are lots of pros and cons but i would say having the ability (if the software supports it) to detect a crash if x number of steps are missed within a period of time is a big pro for ease of use and safety.
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Jimmy: little cons IMO, much more pros.
Cost is a big one though.
The existing controllers are already overwhelmed and have been relatively problematic for quite a few people.It’s pretty well documented online. Like I said I would love to see a better controller like the Masso and closed loop stepper motors as an upgrade. I understand it’s expensive. The Shapeoko 5.1 Pro is a pretty good unit and I recommend them constantly on forums. I’d really like to be able to stay within the Shapeoko eco system. I would prefer to not have to go the Avid route or something similar. Obviously cost is an issue, but for some of us we don’t mind as long as the cost is = to the benefit.
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I have upgraded my Shapeoko 5 Pro with the Masso controller. Never had any more issues with EMI noise, USB disconnecting, missing steps, etc. I have to say that mechanically the Shapeoko 5 Pro is a fantastic machine. We jog the machine at 15000 mm/min and in conjunction with the closed loop steppers the machine handles like a dream. The reason we upgraded was when we wanted to machine Aluminum and messed up a blanks because the machine missed steps. We use it professionally to create wood carvings and had to get a second machine. There was a long deliberation of which second machine to get and I had to go with the mechanically inferior Onefinity Elite 3’ by 3’. that was the right size for us. 2’ by 4’ is just too small for the wood carvings we make. Now, we have 2 machines all Masso, we just load the program on a USB stick and we can run the program on either machine. If you do use the Shapeoko 5 Pro professionally, it is well worth the upgrade.
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Are closed-loop motors more complicated to program or tune?
Probably needs different approaches for the drivers and firmware, for the user there should not be much of a difference if at all.
For the user -what kept me so far from considering- important IMO is that the motors need at least one wire more for feedback, what means completely new wiring. And of course the old controller box cannot be used any more.
What also bothers me a little is that I get excellent support in the C3D ecosphere, support way beyond warranty.
Whenever I built my own something (server, desk top computer…) always the software guy I asked said this would be a hardware issue, and vice versa: I very often was stuck in the air. Do not want to find myself in the same gap between every chair. For now I have my Shapeoko Pro with the original controller, and can really rest assured that I get every support possible from C3D, and from this forum.
And missing steps AFAIK are the reaction of the machine for being asked to deliver more movement than it can deliver (overload). I try to avoid those situations by proactively designing the cuts conservatively (thick stock with grooves / pockets …). The closed loop option can just stop when an overload is detected, it does not provide a solution, but it saves stock (I think, I do not have own experience)
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I definitely agree on the value of the support. I have a Pro now that works fine. But I have an odd space constraint that would support a slightly bigger machine but not one as big as the current 5.1 in the 2x2 size.
I asked C3D if I could buy the X gantry from an XXL Pro and mod it myself to fit my space. But I got a hard “no” to this request and thus need to look at other machines or kits (most of which come with closed loop motors but little support :-(.
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Keep in mind that these come New in the box on Ebay quite often.
One of the reasons I’m hesitant to mod the stock setup as I to value the customer support that Shapeoko provides. It’s some of the best in the business.
I hear you. There’s this phrase you often. That there are people who get into the hobby to make things with their CNC, and the people who get in to tinker with their CNC. I do love making stuff, but it’s also fun to tinker. But I figure that the Shapeoko is a bolt-together kit, so at the very least, I can keep the original gantry and controller and put it back the way it was if my plan didn’t work.
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