I guess the lack of output filter inductors on the VFDs would cause an increase in high frequency impedance at the motor because of the motor inductance. But, IMO it would be better to add filters to the output (and input) of the VFDs to prevent the E-field radiation rather than try to suppress it with stiff and expensive shielded cables.
Good point about the universal motor routers. Their untwisted and unshielded power cables would carry more current than higher voltage HF spindles for the same power draw. Also both their PWM drivers and brushes would generate E-Fields. So, it seems prudent to run their cables perpendicular to and away from others and to keep sensitive things away from the router and/or properly shielded.
BLDC routers run at even lower voltage and proportionally higher currents for the same power output. So, they’re likely to generate higher M-fields and lower E-fields on the cable between the motor and its driver.
An effective KISS (I think @Julien already knows that one) solution for all types is to keep things well separated with perpendicular spindle cable routing.
That was what I hoped too, but unfortunately not, according to the manufacturers (the competent ones) output filtering the VFD reduces efficiency substantially. They went to faster switching electronics to reduce the losses in the system but these are the source of the really nasty high frequency noise, especially the reflection of the voltage transient from the big impedance change when it hits the motor inductance at the end of the cable.
I think the better manufacturers do pay some attention and take the really high frequency stuff off at the drive but mostly they just seem to say “filter the input”, “wire it up properly” and “RTFM” along with “try to keep the wiring short”.
Anyway, back to the separation discussion, yes, orthogonal would help, but you need to have enough pick up to start with, a user can easily route the router cable down the vac hose but that’s not a part of the machine Carbide supplies so the secondary drag chain is a big improvement over “cable tie the router power cable to the outside of the signal wire drag chain” which I was never a big fan of.
Well, it looks like Inventables has lost the plot. They just announced their Xcarve Pro for a whopping $6,495… (actually $11,995 without discount) What a joke!
Shapeoko Pro is a way better value per $.
On the flipside, I hope Carbide sees the opportunity to offer a 4x4 Shapeoko Pro option.
It looks nicely and expensively finished but at that price you could be buying an Avid and really go big. Although I agree that being able to feed 1220mm / 4’ stock would be very handy.
At that price I would certainly expect more than a measly ER11 collet in the 2HP VFD spindle too, I like being able to run grown up bits in my ER20 collet, it was a major reason for the upgrade.
Carbide can definitely crush the competition. Looking forward to seeing it unfold. During the Inventables live stream live chat I told people about the Shapeoko Pro.
They probably should have went away from the “X-Carve” name with this announcement of the Pro. They are completely different machines, different leagues for different markets. The Shapeoko “Pro” doesn’t even match IMO. We are talking about 25mm HG series profile rails and ball screws vs 15mm MGN series X/Y, HG Z and 15mm belts with Z leadscrew, 48in vs ~30in work area. Completely different leagues, use cases and customers in mind. Honestly the price isn’t completely unreasonable, though the pre-order price is a much more aggressive and would benefit them better, especially with that spindle choice (seems limiting compared to everything else).
It does a pretty tidy job of demonstrating how well Carbide kept the cost down on the Shapeoko Pro with the smaller rails and belt drives. If they’d put in all the extras people were asking for they’d likely have ended up at a similar cost.
If there’s one thing that matters most with these machines, its balance. And the SPro looks like its going to perform very well the way its setup and at that price point.
Yea, it seems like you have to go to 2200 Watts to get an ER20 collet on a Chinese spindle (too bad). Although some 120V outlets in the US can support 20A, most are only rated for 15A. So it’s likely a “1500W” input power spindle (probably less than 900W output). Gotta be careful with those Chinese specs!
The price did shock me for the X-carve. As mentioned above, that price competes with the likes of Avid and Axiom, which are arguably a lot more machine.
It really makes you appreciate the work that goes into balancing price vs performance. I do take my hat off to the C3D team for nailing that. Incrementally updating/refining results in a very finished, balanced machine.
Everybody defaults to wanting ballscrews and rails (which we now have) but my trusty old XXL with wheels and belts hammers through 1” birch ply and aluminium, it’s easy to forget that.
I read through the press release of the Xcarve Pro and they offer a touch probe but no BitSetter and no mention of a BitRunner like accessories. For the price it is quite hefty and if I were to spend that amount of money I would probably go to the next level of commercial machines in the $10,000 range with a 4x8 machine. But I am cheap at heart and it would take a lot to open up my pocket book and spend $5,000-$10,000 dollars. .
For what I do my Shapeoko with HDZ, BitSetter, BitRunner and BitZero hits a sweet spot that I think will be hard to beat. Comparing Xcarve and Shapeoko is apples and oranges, although similar in size and features the Easel Online Only software is a non-starter for me. I hated that Fusion360 was online only. Although most people are used to high speed broadband that is not the case for me and is a drag but not everyone is on the top of the digital divide. Yea for the Shapeoko Team
Will preorder information be announced today? Mainly what time does it start on Thursday (and timezone) and what all options are available to pick (router included or no router included options).
I agree… If Carbide 3D made a spindle upgrade attachment (“HDS” Heavy Duty Spindle), similar to how they market the HDZ, I bet they would have large interest.
Many people that purchase these type of machines are probably scared to get an aftermarket 2.2kW spindle and VFD. A plug and play solution designed by Carbide 3D would probably fit a market niche very nicely, as does the HDZ.
