I’m interested in specing out a 4x8 machine to supplement my Pro XXL. For context, I work for an event production company, so my concerns are protecting our rental gear and providing services to our clients that we currently subrent or outsource all-together.
My current common uses:
Cutting ~2.125" foam (similar to EVA) for Pelican case interiors
Cutting 6mm foamed PVC sheet for decor pieces
Cutting 3/4" plywood for dolly boards to move equipment around
Down the road, we may consider starting to manufacture our own flight/road cases and cable trunks, out of 1/4-3/4" baltic birch ply and comparable honeycomb core ABS plastics.
Current drawbacks:
not fully 4x8’ so I’m spending time cutting material down to a useable size. That takes time and creates waste that isn’t particularly useable after the fact.
Speeds and feeds are ok, but it would sure be nice to double the IPM
Holddown system is currently tape and spray adhesive. I have a plan for a vacuum table, but because the cutting surface is smaller than the machine, I would have to cut it in pieces and assemble it with silicon or something later.
Desires:
4x8’ cutting surface. I want to be able to get to every corner completely with at least a 1/8" endmill.
Native vacuum table
400+ IPM
Spindle that can accept a 1/2" shank or larger (can be an air cooled spindle)
Control software that is user friendly and can run on my laptop. If I have to learn something new, I can do that. It would just be nice to have it be able to run from my work laptop (Windows 11 Dell) that I carry with me everywhere. Motion works wonderfully for me now, for reference.
Works with Fusion 360 as the GCode source. I’m sure that’s mostly doable, so long as there’s a configuration for Fusion. I haven’t researched Vectric, and a lot of makers like Shopbot seem to come with that subscription. That could be fine, but really Fusion is where it’s at for us, because we’re also using it for creating decor support pieces we 3D print in-house. Having the ability to work with those files to design my decor pieces, and vice versa, without having to switch ecosystems is a big, big draw.
Concerns:
I’m not needing accuracy to a single thou, but for the decor pieces, it needs to be no less accurate than the Shapeoko Pro XXL.
Might be interested in an ATC. I’m using maybe 5 endmills, over and over, and depending on the job, I’ll be using two or three per cut. Truthfully, for the most part I’m using two endmills, each for a different operation, so automatic changes aren’t the end of the world. But if I’m not around and I need someone else to run the machine, not having to worry about changing tools would be very convenient.
This machine would be running near 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, so I need reliability, repeatability, and a robust structure that won’t show its age in sloppiness after a short while.
Dust collection; I like the idea of a Z-independent system, because of the thickness of material I cut for cases. I need to be able to collect dust 2.25" off the top of the work surface and .1" off the work surface, in the same job. A traveling dust boot would get in the way of that, but having it stationary at the top of the work would maintain, I believe, enough suction that the low end cuts would come out clean.
I love using my Pro XXL, and going forward I would use it to create trial runs or single parts here and there. I would like the large format machine for, as I’m doing currently, making a run of something like 100 squares of plastic with a company’s logos and taglines cut in, with mounting holes for where we’re hanging the squares from extrusion and drape lines. I’m also cutting 20 some odd Pelican cases for one of our sites, and a single layer at a time is time consuming. I happen to know that one sheet of foam will cut one full case, and being able to run that whole thing with no material changes in the middle would be world-alteringly convenient.
So I’m open to suggestions. I’ve looked at Stepcraft, Shopbot, Avid CNC, and Industrial CNC. If the Shapeoko HDM became a fully 4x8 machine, I’d jump on it. But I’d love some user feedback on specific machines, companies, workflows, and anything I might have missed. I want to get some research and put together a proposal for my company’s accounting team to move forward on a larger scale than what Carbide3D and Shapeoko have begun for us. If there are experienced CNC techs who know of tradeshows where companies display this kind of thing my boss and I could visit and ask questions based on our particular needs, that would be great info to have as well.
Also, if anyone has experience with laser cutting, not simply engraving, on the scale of maybe 2x3’, I’d love input there as well. Not interested in a homebrew version of that at all, or a tacked on component to an existing CNC machine. I don’t want to have to rely on add-on protections to keep curious eyes safe. I want a closed system. That machine’s use would be thin ply and veneer, like 1/8" thick or less, and gobos for lighting. I want to cut very thin metal so clients can order any custom design there that we can later insert into LEKOs or intelligent movers for stage washes. I could see using it to cut vinyl appliques for our acrylic lecterns or windows. These are all products we currently outsource.
Just so you have a reference for the rest of my comments, I own a custom carpentry shop that does cabinets, furniture and architectural work in the extreme high end market. We have a highly customized Avid 5x10 with an ATC. We use it 90% for cabinet box parts and the rest is 4th axis work.
If you really have enough work to keep a 4x8 machine busy 8 hours a day and 5 days a week, you should be looking at industrial grade machines. The only one on your list of machines you have looked at that might be in that category is Industrial CNC. I say might because I have no experience with them. The company I would personally look at first for this class of machine is C.R. Onsrud. They are built here in the US and are known for pretty good quality.
Second thing you need to think about is how you plan on managing all that material. If we are pushing it, we can put twenty or so 3/4"x4’x8’ sheets of plywood through our machine per day. With a more rigid and powerful machine and spindle, you could probably get close to double that. The limitation becomes material handling time, not machining time. You would need 2 people to be constantly loading and unloading it. Moving that much material around is a ton of work that needs a lot of space.
Your budget will dictate what you can get. We are about $45,000 (not including the cost of my time to assemble the machine or design and build all the custom stuff) into our Avid including all our customization and installation. We added an ATC spindle with an enclosed rotary tool changer, a light barrier for OSHA compliance, control console with status lighting and pendant, multi-zone vacuum table with electronic valves and a LinuxCNC based controller. Also included in that price was all the dust collection, compressed air and electrical. I would guess you would be somewhere around $100,000 to $150,000 for an industrial grade machine and all the related costs that fits your desires list. The only thing that wouldn’t get you is the control software on your laptop. Machines like this generally have their own dedicated controller. I would be leery of any machine that doesn’t have one while also claiming to be “industrial grade”. It usually means they are cutting corners in order to get the price down. A well polished control system and software makes a huge difference in usability.
If you can drop the ATC and build your own vacuum table, a 4x8 from Avid is a passable solution. They are not industrial grade machines. I would call them entry level professional machines. You could probably get something like that fully up and running for $15K to $25K. The biggest challenge and cost beyond the price of the kit would be figuring out how to get the machine compliant with OSHA.
You could also look at a Shapeoko 5 Pro 4x4 which can do half a sheet of plywood at once. I personally think the Carbide Motion is too limiting but you could use others. Not as good for throughput as an Avid but still quite capable.
This is all very helpful, thank you.
Now that I think about it, my useage timeline might be a bit exaggerated. It would probably be more like either 8 hours a day, 5 days a week for a month, or nothing at all for a month. And I’m considering the workload I have now. If I’m working that long running a single piece at a time, I could cut that down to an eighth of that time if I can do a full sheet. (I typically get 8 pieces per whatever sheet I’m using).
Maybe the ATC isn’t worth it, but I know what you mean about material handling. That’s taking up so much of my time now, which is why I’m very interested in the vacuum table.
So let’s say I’m not needing industrial level. I can focus on the “entry level professional machine”. Your estimate of $15-25k is about what my research was showing me, so that’s good to know. I hadn’t considered OSHA compliance, so I’ll have to talk to our guy here who’s in charge of maintaining that for us.
When I was first pitching the idea of a CNC for our office, I did look at the comparably sized option that Avid CNC provided, so I’ll take a look at them again. I’m still not entirely confident in my abilities, which is why I liked the plug-n-play useability of the Shapeoko. What kind of experience or setup would I need to use something like the Avid?
Provided you aren’t trying to do anything that the Avid doesn’t do straight out of the box, it is almost as simple as a Shapeoko. The assembly is a bunch of work but very well documented. Their support is also pretty good. Your biggest challenge will be OSHA stuff and integrating it with the machine. That will probably require a little bit of software and hardware modification. There is an extra input on their stock control that you could probably use for any extra safety input required. You would need to do a little bit of scripting to tell the machine how to behave based on that input.
Avid machines run Mach4 as the control software. I am not personally a fan but if you aren’t doing anything outside of what Avid has setup and it is running on a very stable pc it can work okay.
There may be other options for machines in this price range, I would just avoid anything that runs on Mach3. It is very out of date at this point.
If you are focusing on a entry level professional machine, my brother has the Avid 4x8 with their 3KW spindle. He really likes it and can do what you are planning to do.
Ask Nick said the Mach4 isn’t idea, but it’s better for the cost then some of the $2k controllers.
You might find a used one for a decent price on Craigslist, Facebook marketplace, or some other place like that.
I am actually in the middle of creating a drop in replacement for Mach4 on Avid machines. The plan is to provide a fully pre-configured LinuxCNC setup with the pc and the electronics you need. Just replace a couple of ribbon cables and the ESS (Ethernet SmoothStepper - this is the brain of the machine used with Mach4) for a Mesa controller. My guess is that it will take about 10 minutes to do the swap and start cutting something. Could be a couple months before it is fully ready though. I want to make sure it is a very stable setup before I sell it to anyone.
LinuxCNC is way better than Mach4. It is extremely customizable without having to write any major scripts or code. It can be a little bit daunting to start because of the amount of choices you have. Plus, its free!
I started using Mach4 on our Avid and got all our customization to work. Eventually I ran into a major limitation that comes from how Mach4 is designed that caused me to angrily toss it in the bin. I could get into the weeds on the specifics but it would take me a while to write it out. The 2 main points from it would be:
After an e-stop, always fully restart the controller and Mach4 software. ALWAYS!!! Mach4 does not handle e-stops very well at a code level and it can leave the software and controller in unusual states. This can lead to very expensive problems if you don’t restart everything.
Timing/Execution order critical integrations with external devices such as those required by ATC setups are very complicated to script. This is also because of how Mach4 is built. The proper way to script my current ATC in Mach4 would take about 1000 lines of scripting minimum vs about 300 of just gcode in LinuxCNC.