There are links to the 5 graphed units in the “Routers vs Spindles.pdf” in post 21. Post 13 has a link to a source and price info for the “Air Cooled HSD”. Post 7 has links to my recommended inverter and the Chinese 800 Watt liquid cooled KL-800L. Performance of the KL-800L should match that graphed for the KL-800A unless it can be run faster like the liquid cooled HSD version (no cooling fans).
So, except for the added power consumption, expense, hassle, and noise for the liquid cooling system, the liquid cooled versions should be the best choice. It’s up to you if the added cost of the HSD units justifies their added expense.
Of course “the proof is in the pudding”, so it would be nice if you (and others) would share you experiences like the OP did and hopefully continues to do.
2019-04-12 Addition: This sounds like an excellent ~$600 alternative to the $1600 HSD air cooled spindle.
Would it be possible to post a video with audio of the spindle cutting wood? I’d be thrilled to compare to my new Shapeoko 3 XXL with the Carbide 3D spindle.
You mentioned that the sound level dropped a lot and of course that is exactly what I want to improve on my currently screaming dewalt setup on the Shapeoko. Can you or have you run anything while using a sound meter app? I’m trying to justify the price and appreciate your input.
Don’t forget that just because the spindle/router is quieter the actual cutting noise will be the same. It was recently discussed here how loud plywood can be to cut, the cutting noise of that will make the sound of the Dewalt disappear. Heck, the sound of most shop vacs people use for these things is pretty loud. So if you’re really going for “quiet” and you’re planning to cut anything substantial then start thinking about an enclosure with sound deadening material and spend your money there. Now if you’re only cutting balsa wood or renshape it might be worth the quiet spindle? Just my $0.02
Yeah, that’s why I bought a Fein vac, really cut down the sound and will be building an enclosure as the first line of defense for the noise problem. After that, possibly the water cooled spindle if required. I am getting used to wearing ear plugs but… Thanks for the response.
I have the Fein Turbo I myself, it’s a nice little quiet sucker (pun intended). I still find the cutting noise to be the loudest part of the equation. Having said that I run a SuperPID on my Dewalt and at 30,000RPMs it is “that” much louder than the standard 27,000…but still quieter than most of my cuts (I cut a fair amount of plywood, which is loud). I bought a set of Bluetooth earmuffs and now I can’t hear anything, plus I get music!
Here’s what not cutting (1st part) vs. cutting (2nd part) 0.125 inch deep slots in 12 mm Baltic Birch sounds like on our XXL with a Whiteside RU1600 0.125 inch 2 flute upcut endmill at 27000 RPM and 60 IPM. IMO the router noise dominates.0.125X0.125 Baltic Birch Slotting.zip (2.9 MB)
I can’t do zip files from my phone, but your description is a small bit at a really slow feed and the router full speed. I usually do 1/4” single flute straight but at 21,000-22,000RPM, 100-120ipm feed and it is definitely louder than the router, but man the cuts are good!
Why wouldn’t you want to use a “small bit” when cutting? Smaller bits require less power because they remove less material. Also, higher speeds enable higher feed rates because they reduce cutter torque/force. IMO, much of the reason that your cuts are so loud is because you are pushing both the Shapeoko and router so hard. The attached pdf as well as the following pictures provide additional information.Slotting Baltic Birch 0.125 X 0.125.pdf (3.2 MB)
Bigger bit, less deflection. Bigger bit usually has a longer cutting edge which is important if you’re cutting thick materials (I cut 3/4” maple ply usually). While the sound is loud, I can’t argue with the cut quality I’m getting. I’ve adjusted up/down and have gotten it quieter, but it’s still loud compared to most everything else I’ve cut. By all means if what you’re cutting is quieter than the router, then go for a quiet spindle, it just wouldn’t work out for me.
Yup - it looks like 1/4" endmills are required for your application. But, I think that you could quadruple your endmill life by using two flute endmills and cutting twice as deep at half the feed rate as shown below. The chip load would be reduced from 0.005" to 0.001" (likely reducing cutting noise significantly). Also, since spiral cutter heads on jointers and planers are much quieter than straight cutter heads, it’s likely that spiral endmills are significantly quieter than straight endmills.
I like the straight cut particularly because it doesn’t pull strands of wood up like a spiral. Tried downcut a few times too and was really unhappy with the finish at the bottom of pockets and the slow speed required for proper chip clearing. What I haven’t tried is a compression bit. In the end though I get good cuts with the straight bit and it’s reasonably fast, the sound is just an annoyance and I have ear muffs. That’s what we’re all going for right, great cuts? My machine is dead silent,…when it’s turned off
Oh wow! Those look really nice. Especially that 42k RPM and the 60k RPM! I just asked for quotes and I’ll share the prices I receive back here with everyone.
Note that the 60 kRPM versions only support small diameter endmills which preclude full utilization of their power capabilities because of Shapeoko force limitations. The 40 kRPM versions are available with ER20 (13mm capable) collets that could utilize the full spindle power capability for material like “soft wood” because of their support for larger diameter endmills. But, most endmills for wood are only rated for a maximum of 24 - 27 kRPM (as are most collets and collet nuts). Everything should be properly balanced and rated for operation at whatever speed you choose for safety and performance reasons.
Yep, that’s what I gathered too. I thought the 40k RPM spindle sounded most appealing.
Here are the prices I heard back with from them:
JGD-62/0.75R40 (speed 40k rpm)=265 USD
JGD-62/1.0R60 (speed 60k rpm)=515 USD
JGD-80/1.5R24 (speed 24k rpm)=305 USD
JGD-80/1.5R40 (speed 40k rpm)=410 USD
JGD-80/1.5R60 (speed 60k rpm)=660 USD
220V single phase VFD
0.75KW S0007=145 USD per pc
1.5kw S0015=155 USD per pc
water pump=15 USD per pc
spindle mount=20 USD per pc
All in all, 60k RPM is pricey but 40k seems to not be too bad. I may just settle with a 30k spindle, which is better than the 24k spindle most people get.
Did you ask about shipping costs? - Alibaba’s estimates are ~$500 to California!
Here’s some charts to help with speed, power, and collet size tradeoffs given the 20 lbf force and 200 IPM feed rate Shapeoko3 limitations. Also note that all of these spindles are significantly heavier than the trim routers. Mr. Beaver did a lot to adapt his “Monster” (yet incredibly light weight!) 5.5 kg “2.2 kW” spindle.
The charts are in order of decreasing material removal rate (MMR) and assume that the unit power for aluminum is 159 Watts per cubic inches/min. Chip-loads are all 0.0015"/flute for the maximum MMRs. Remember that the “1.25 HP” trim routers are likely only capable of 400 - 500 Watts cutting power.
