That is straight off their site today, the first hit when I looked up “free cnc image software” for a question in another venue. That was a mistake, free software support is almost always limited to forums and mostly from other users, nobody should expect phone or email support for free. Non-clients were invited to call the help desk and ask for email support, and don’t forget the free year of Pro during the lockdowns. C3D suddenly went from inviting all to the party to locking the door with little warning. Today’s download page still makes it hard to see that V7 only works if you have Carbide Motion or buy Pro, combine the two and it’s going to p off a lot of potential customers. It’s well within their rights to do that, but it sure could have been done a lot better.
When C3D first announced the change in gcode files on the Beta V7 thread I had commented that I might have to go and find other software. Since that time and because I have a Shapeoko the change of not making gcode has not effected me in any way. So if noncustomers cannot make gcode then they can go and spend some money on whatever software they want.
I cannot blame C3D on reflection for changing their software to not support people that are not customers. After all it is the Golden Rule in full effect. He with the Gold rules. In this case C3D has invested their time and money and are expecting a return on that investment. That return if from paying customers and not from free loaders. The free loaders can still post questions here on the forum but no business can give away the store and stay in business.
So if you have a C3D machine there is no change for you and if you are not a customer of C3D then there really is no change for you except that you need to find another free product or pay up like all the customers of C3D. Simple Easy Peasy.
“Do it’s Best” implies best-effort, implies “No promises”. If someone thinks is means more than that, that’s on them.
There was some warning (announced during a >1 month beta), and people can still run v6 and have the GCode for an indefinite amount of time, while they search around for another free product to give them what they want (if they can find one).
It’s funny, when people hear "you can still run v6, their answer is, “But v6 is going to fall behind the curve in features and they will eventually sunset the product” — OK…find another free option while you have the time…and when free options no longer work, BUY SOMETHING and you won’t have that problem.
“Free software” is an oxymoron — Software is never free: The cost is often hidden, but someone pays for it (advertisers, marketers, etc.). In this case, every Carbide client is paying for the support of non-clients. Now Carbide is cutting back on the support of non-clients, most likely so they don’t have to raise the price or lower the quality of support for clients. As a client, I’m OK with that.
I have a C3D machine, and this would change my process quite a bit.
Current process:
- Design, Toolpaths, Output G-Code
- Edit G-Code (Ramp engages, separate Adv. V-Carve paths, Re-arrange operations for efficiency)
- Simulate G-Code to see material removal, check for collisions & gouges, improve efficiency
- Send edited G-Code to cloud to retrieve from shop
I understand the need to give priority for support to customers. I just think there are better ways to do that than making the software more complicated to use.
If they can limit the " Extract GCode from Carbide Create V7" web page to customers only, they could limit a support page to customers only, or verify emails from customers to give support priority.
@Tod1d Tod, so you would need to have the extract web page open (maybe do that once at the beginning of your session)…and between step 1 and 2 of your current process, instead of “outputing GCODE”, you’d drag the c2d to that page and take the gcode…right? You don’t need to log on or anything, the webpage knows who you are…you just open it and drag to it. From that point on, your process is the same, yes?
Tod is a C3D customer.
His experience now with the software provided by C3D for his machine is now worse.
He is equivalent to you.
What point are you making? He should suck it up to prevent freeloaders from benefitting?
TANSTAAFL. The cost is always buried somewhere, in one form or another.
So you always have the option to go elsewhere if C3D does not meet your individual needs. Open your pocket book and pay for what you want. That is the reality of this conservation.
This dialogue has ventured away from it’s original intent. Appreciated the clarity on how to proceed with the software upgrades. Perhaps the discussion can move to an other topic. Cheers all…hope you have a great day.
I assume this question is to me…
I think @Tod1d is an advanced and long-respected user — look at the complexity of the process he’s using - editing GCode directly, modeling the results, making adjustments and then using cloud storage to share to his machine — and we’re talking about dragging and dropping a file instead of an extra Save — and calling that “more complicated”. Yes, technically, it’s more complicated, but it doesn’t seem to be adding THAT much complexity relative to the rest of the process. But I do respect him and believe it’s an inconvenience. Enough to talk about ruining the experience??? It wouldn’t for me. That’s all I’m saying.
I also have some complaints about changes to the software - in particular the number of extra clicks we’ve had to deal lately on clearing unnecessary dialogs. They are inconvenient and, in my opinion, makes the experience worse…but they help someone - so I complain about it, ask for a change, and yes, suck it up.
I’d bet that, if Carbide had come out and said, “we’ll have to charge and extra $xx a year to cover the additional costs of - how you put it - ‘freeloaders benefiting’ - or we could have you extract GCode with an extra drag and drop” — most people would go for the drag and drop!
Thanks, Gary. I’ve only been around since February. But I’ve been in the CNC business since ~1987
You are right, with the webpage now it’s a minor (QOL) inconvenience to my process.
From a company perspective it was a pretty big change. CM had to be modified to accept an encrypted version of the G-Code imbedded in the .c2d file. CC had to be modified to store the G-Code.
Then they realized people still needed an external G-Code file so created the webpage ( a “band-aid” fix). And now they’re going to protect the webpage so only customers can use it. When that last bit, identifying customers vs non-customers could have been the solution to the problem.
With the webpage, I have to transmit the .c2d file (Much larger than a g-code file, like x10+) to them, then download the G-Code. I trust C3D to not do anything nefarious with my data, but I still have to send it. When the G-Code is there in the file, and the code to create it is still there.
Fortunately the files are not “huge” by any means, but it’s like driving around the block to go next door because my car only turns left.
I’m reminded of the adage/proverb, “Don’t hang on to a mistake because you spent a lot of time making it.”
Only C3D product I have is a Pro XXL. I use Vectric Aspire and have moved to Gsender as a result of this. I honestly would not have purchased the XXL had I been aware of this drama. However…the machine support here remains above average and I am certainly satisfied with the quality of my Pro. This reminds me of the Glowforge debate, and why I never bought one. It will be misinterpreted and it will change perspectives. I am thankful for individual hobbyists that develop workarounds. Thank y’all.
Carbide Create was an excellent, easy to use, product for beginners and hobbyists, about the best free software on the market. With their formerly generous policy I recommended it to a lot of new cheap router owners in another forum, while answering pretty much every question about upgrading those cheapies with “go look at a ShapeOKO”. That seemed to have resulted in several machine sales. I’d have grumbled a bit and paid the same $40/year I pay for lightburn, but they’re competing against much better software at the same price level while adding clumsy DRM that even affects some of their own customers.
Simply adding a warning to V6 about due to rising costs we’ll unfortunately be charging for the next version, along with making it obvious on the download page (still isn’t there) would have made it a lot smoother transition. Even the Easel slide them into monthly charges model would have worked better, and as we know Easel isn’t all that great. It’s C3D’s business, hopefully the consequences of this decision will work out better than they appear.
I am disappointed with the change. I think that it has added a bit more friction to my process. I am only ever going to be a hobbyist but I have limited time to spare and this is taking a bit away. I use a shared drive from a RPI to hold the gcode files. The networking on the RPI is finicky on wifi so moving larger files makes it that much more of a challenge.
This isn’t a deal breaker, but it is an annoyance. I would prefer that they found some other method of limiting their resources supporting non-customers. I like my machine and I do really like the support that I get from the company so I am not going away. I would just prefer to help support them in a way that isn’t as painful
Actually, in our experience, the V7 .c2d files w/ toolpaths are smaller for more complex files than the uncompressed G-code — they also function as something of an error check — if the file is incompleat, then the G-code can’t be extracted and one won’t have cut which suddenly stops part of the way through as happens w/ G-code transfers.
I simply ran an Ethernet cable for one of my Rasbperry Pi systems — reduced overall wireless traffic and made its connection rock solid — is that an option for your situation? Alternately, run Ethernet over the powerline? A pair of adapters for that is quite affordable.
Will,
If I would find the time to finish running my ethernet cabling a wired connection with do the job. It’s my intent to do it, but the last several feet requires a lot of drilling and pulling. Right now, I have to hold the RPI in just the right position to get a good connection. 
I agree with @Gerry and Mooselake that the g-code lockout is an abdication of Carbide 3D’s original values and impacts customers with more advanced workflows negatively (g-code manipulation, custom controllers, etc.). It will probably cause some reputation damage to the company or at the very least lead to a shift in users.
I’m surprised there’s so many apologists on this forum defending the move in the name of “running a business”. This isn’t about capitalism @GJM, it’s about the arbitrary friction, diminishing returns, and ultimate futility of DRM in a digital world and its hypocrisy given the earlier marketing around Carbide Create (check archive.org back a few months). It’s totally possible to have a successful company turning a profit that practices even more openness than Carbide 3D – consider Prusa Research, for example – so it’s not mutually exclusive with being a successful business. And there are obvious alternatives to handle scarcity of support resources that is not decimating an entire class of users that otherwise may have been converted to Carbide 3D customers, like myself. Knowing this and knowing the nature of software, people like me and the others posting here lose respect for Carbide 3D over this.
It appears that there’s two kinds of Carbide 3D users: those that came here because it was the closet thing to a CNC company with free software, great hardware, an open community, and open values (the original Kickstarter Shapeoko was open source, after all), and those that use Carbide 3D as an appliance in their workshop and couldn’t care less about GPLv3, DRM, GRBL… and probably don’t even know what those things are. I’m worried the company is shifting more towards the latter. I would have thought they would have shifted more towards the former over time, after establishing themselves with the great hardware.
It’s comical that Carbide 3D has and still derides cloud-based software (“Carbide Create is downloaded software that runs from your own computer, it’s not cloud software that can be insecure and unavailable. … In fact, it’s the only cross-platform CAD/CAM software available that doesn’t depend on “The Cloud”. … Why are we against the cloud? Because it locks you into a vendor- to their availability and their willingness to continue providing the software. … If we’ve done our job right, you’ll come to depend on Carbide Create and we don’t want you to think that we’re holding you hostage. Download the software and keep it. Use it where ever and however you want.”) and then create a cloud-based app for you to upload your private design file just so you can release the gcode that’s being held hostage under salsa20 encryption. Honestly, that’s worse than cloud-based software for the duplicity of it, as the g-code is still generated offline.
In the long run, the marginal cost of software is zero. The cost of support is not, but even in OSS, that scales with the community. There will be an OSS replacement for Carbide Create one day. There will probably be cracked versions before that. In fact, the best thing Carbide 3D could probably do is just open source Carbide Create if they wanted to grow their community like the 3D printer companies have and not turn away potential customers from the bolted-on DRM. Carbide Create still has the potential to be a great gateway into CNC, but I think the solution is more openness, not less.
Well I’m glad you got that off your chest. Sadly you have probably expressed “your” opinions on a posting that will see marginal viewings. The sky is not falling. There are clearly far more important and impactful events in the world then spending your energy on this. Carbide has created a business model they wish to run with and they feel is best for the strategy for going to market. Your can choose to support it or move on. Oh, I suppose you could buy the company then you could do what you wish but I suspect you would not like to deal with the harsh realities and challenges. You would have to deal with customer feedback questioning your perspective…which by the way isn’t perhaps the best or correct. I am not saying that anything you have said is correct or incorrect…just put life in perspective.
Any ways…I’m retired now and I do not miss managing a multi-national company. Sadly it takes until you retire and put life into perspective to realize how trivial some things can be. Move on or accept.
This dialogue has ventured away from it’s original intent. Perhaps the discussion can move to an other topic. Cheers all…hope you have a great day.
I appreciate the feedback from everyone on the changes to G-code output in V7. We’ve read all of them and have had internal discussions about a number of them.
I think we’ve heard just about every point of view by now, and from here out it seems like we’ll essentially be rehashing the same topics, with the same results. Going forward we’ll probably start locking threads or flagging posts to keep threads from going negative.
If you have anything to say about the policy, please DM me. The discussions I’ve had via DM have been much more productive than the public discussions, and I’m happy to have more.