Grouping vectors shouldn’t put them in the same layer

Software Carbide Create
1

Just what the title says. I often have several objects that I’m cutting from a single piece of stock. Each object has a label which I don’t cut, along with an outline, which I do. Sometimes there’s a pocket or a chamfer. You get the idea. I use layers to organize the tool paths. So none of the label layer gets a tool path, but the cutout layer will. The problem arises when I group objects to try a different layout. As soon as they’re grouped, they are all in the same layer and I have to reorganize. Could grouping leave the layers alone?

2

I can’t think of a single drawing program which allows groups to include elements on different layers.

Usually the hierarchy is:

  • layer
  • page/pasteboard
  • group
  • sub-group (if applicable)
  • composite path
  • individual path
  • points (if using a tool which allows them to have an independent existence)

One feature which has been suggested is an option “objects remember layers”, so when an object is ungrouped the objects go back to the layers which they were previously on — FreeHand has that option and it’s one which I always enable (along w/ increasing the Undo stack to 100).

3

Vectric software works this way. You can group anything that you can highlight on any visible layer (it could be another group.) The group will be on the current layer, but you can move it to any layer you want.

Then, when you want to ungroup, you get to choose whether you want each object to return to the group’s layer or the original layer.

4

Allowing that would create dependencies between layers, which would confuse even savvy users:

  • If one layer is locked, and you move a split group, what happens?
  • If you select a group to assign to a toolpath, but half is on a hidden layer, now you get unexpected toolpaths.

Those first two would be a support nightmare, and I could probably think of more edge cases if I tried.

2 Likes
5

I don’t understand how you would select a group to assign a toolpath (as far as I know, you can select vectors or layers), but leaving that alone, would it be possible to have the ungroup function have an option to return the grouped objects to their original layer as proposed above?

1 Like
6

In Vectric software, once you group a set of vectors they are no longer on their original layer. They are “moved” to the group layer so there are no unexpected results. It doesn’t matter whether you turn off individual layers after that.

The grouped vectors are a new object that references the original vector layer. That way you have the option to return the grouped vectors to their original vector’s layer. (If it doesn’t exist anymore, then it returns to the default layer.)

1 Like
7

I too have an issue with grouping vectors putting them in the same layer. Theoretically, I don’t see why grouping should affect toolpaths when it is vectors assigned to toolpaths (grouping need not interfere with that). But for comparibility to other programs (do you want to be the same or better???), fine. Then why not create some similar function with a different name that clumps vectors together for functionality in design (like centering, as demonstrated on Carbide3d’s training videos), but doesn’t affect toolpaths.

8

The terminology used by Carbide Create is mostly that used by existing vector editors, as are many of the interface concepts, but both are tempered by the expectations of our users, many of whom do not have any experience with vector graphics software, and that it is also important to consider industry norms which are the result of decades of usage.

The big thing is, we have to work with what folks expect/what is consistent, and a fairly typical sequence of events is:

  • draw up a design
  • assign toolpaths and see in the Preview that placement needs to be adjusted
  • switch back to Design pane, group everything, possibly resize the stock, and center, possibly ungrouping

I’m pretty confident in saying that that occurs far more often than folks even open up the Layer pallet, let alone use Layers in a design.

The current behaviour preserves the expected (and verified) appearance of the cut so long as no toolpaths are associated with layers, and if that were the case, then the appearance in the design pane should change, giving the user the chance to undo the grouping.

If you have a file where the existing organization options:

  • assignment to a layer
  • grouping within a layer
  • toolpaths work with a current selection (elements (including groups if they are part of a selection) on one or more layers) or associated with a given layer

does not work for you, please post it and we’ll gladly look into it with you.

9

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