$500 vs $5,000 CNC - Are They REALLY Worth 10x More?
I think the title is meant to be a little shocking to get the views, but I found some of the comments about pricing and payback times to be a different take than I expected. Lots of Shapeoko customers are making money with their machines, and Ryan definitely knows what it takes to make money on Etsy, so that was interesting.
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It was interesting that his total cut hours were the same per project for the payback, just more quantity. He has been using the 5Pro in a lot of his videos recently even though he has an AltMill and lots of much bigger machines.
In one not too long ago he described the BitSetter as a way to keep you from making a mistake and breaking bits. I think the real value is in time savings, but if you do a lot of jobs with a single bit it wouldnāt really matter and could be annoying if you zero using the bit instead of the probing pin.
Not to mention that heās comparing apples to oranges when it comes to machine size, construction, quality, capability and size.
@CullenS Did you see the video he did on comparing the Altmill to Shapeoko? I thought it was kinda āiffyā
Yes, I watched that comparison with the AltMill. It was a while back and I do remember there were some items in it I took exception with. I think that is the one where he talked about the bitsetter. As I recall the general advice in that one was Shapeoko if you didnāt know what you were doing because it was going to hold your hand. When I made my decision to upgrade I seriously considered both machines. The hybrid table, the bitsetter and the better reputation for support as well as this community are what pushed me to the 5.1Pro.
I think the main takeaway from the video I linked above is really at the end. If you buy a cheap machine you are going to get frustrated and not stick with the hobby/business. I donāt think the value comparisons were really serious.
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Just finished watching this video. Very interesting and heās right on. Buy a good expensive machine and you can do better work with less frustration.
Being that the machine is manufactured in the USA is perhaps why it such a good machine. This is the one reason I purchased the Nomad 3 for my model railroad projects. I compared it to the China built Carvera Air Desktop CNC Machine and went for the Nomad 3 from the Shapeoko company. Wish the Nomad 3 had a tool changer, but no big deal. It works for what I want it to do.
Donāt know if many know this but there are two ways to run a machine axis. The ones used on the router/engraver machines are stepper motors in what is called an open circuit. In other words no feed back as to where the tool is.
The other control method of an axis is with a servo motor and a digital feed back. This usually means a glass scale attached to the axis or a rotary encoder on the motor itself. This way the software knows exactly where the cutter is at and can either correct itās position or go into a fault mode halting the machine.
I donāt believe that youāll ever see a servo system on these machines becaue it will increase in the price Iām sure, but it would be more accurate in cutting and being able to run the machines faster.
Just my take my take on having 30 years experience in the machine tool industry that produced gear cutting machines that used CNC servo motors to the run the machines.
Bernd
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I think in his time calculation he also didnāt include using something like a BitZero to set his zeros. Iāve done it by hand plenty of times and if I have to do it by hand I groan the entire time because the BZ is so handy.
Just finished this video and I have a few more thoughts.
I think Iām spoiled because my first machine was a Shapeoko Pro XL with a Pwn VFD spindle (after getting mad at 3 different routers) and when I upgraded to the 5 Pro it was quite a bit of back and forth with support because of the early run boards having some issues (support was incredible through that process). I never had one of the āless expensiveā machines so watching that thing struggle was awful to watch. Reminded me of my Ender 5 Pro 3d printer I had before getting into the Bambu ecosystem - if you like spending 3/4 of your time leveling the bed and troubleshooting absolutely get the Ender but if you want to just print stuff get a Bambu.
My first machine paid for itself in about 2 months with only barely putting any effort in and only having 2 products. I was able to pay cash for the second one just on money made on the first one and then sold the first one for 70% of what I had in it. Now I can run 8 of my most popular signs on the machine at once.
I think he was entirely too kind most of the way through that video to that Fox machine until he said āthis is a machine for people who like to be mad all the timeā which pretty summed it up perfectly.
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He is likely showing more Shapeoko use due to this forum. I, for one, have posted his website and his videos on this forum more than once. He can see where his internet traffic is coming from, and likely, he is seeing this forum as a good source of traffic.
Itās a virtuous cycle. We watch more, so he posts more Shapeoko stuff, so we watch moreā¦ etcā¦
The only Altmill video I have seen posted on this forum was the Altmill VS Shapeoko comparison. I bet he received a ton of Traffic from this forum. While Altmill user traffic is likely fragmented or nonexistent, or he is unable to identify a good click-through source.
Heās a smart guy and excellent at internet search and marketing. So, of course, he is going to target clients with the content they want to watch. In the Altmill vs Shapeoko comparison video, he acknowledges that the Shapeoko user experience is much better than Altmillās, even though Altmill is a slightly better machine.
Unnecessarily harsh in his critique of the inexpensive machine because I think they could be great options for people starting out. Itās not for metal or 2" hardwood cutting boards, but with a $500 machine, you do small project and (more importantly) learn CAD/CAM. My learning path was a makerspace ShopBot before I got a machine at home.
I mean, what if you discover this craft isnāt for you, but only after you dropped 5-7K on a new Shapeoko/Altmill/Onefinity?
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The flip side I guess though is you could get so frustrated that you give up the endeavor all together.
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The age old āBuy once, cry once.ā spending a ton starting out, vs buying cheap to start. It exists in every hobby, craft, occupation. 
Hell hath no furry like a Snap-On snob mechanic when nowadays Harbor Freightās Icon line perform as well at 1/4 the cost and match the quality. But Icon isnāt Central Machinery. Itās a good middle man that I recommend after having spent a decade as a mechanicā¦as an example of there being a middle ground that represents value and not either end of a spectrum.
My opinion:
Iāve seen people buy a $500 machine with flaws that must be corrected with zero support. Iāve seen it a ton in the 3D printer arena. Iāve had a small farm of $250 machines that each required modification to print well, and product support was 100% on me immediately after purchase. I even took a several year hiatus from 3D printing because it was so frustratingā¦and I have a high degree of technical aptitude. All those years of that endeavor and I have 1 mid grade machine that replaced 5 of the cheap/modified/self supported machines. There was a joke in the 3D printing community about the absolute glut of cheap printers hitting the market after COVID. People found out they were more effort than advertised.
I think the Shapeoko machines hit that value proposition very well. Itās not a $500 machine, that yeah is a cheap start, but frustrates many people out of the hobby/side hustle/business with issues than it teaches people the craft. To me, buy once, cry once" is more like buying a full 5x10 cabinet making machine that costs $50k. A Shapeoko is the $5k option that gets you a solid start with support that is by orders of magnitude better than the online forums you have to sift thru to self support the $500 machineā¦hell, better support than a $50k machine in many cases. 
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Or start with a used one like I did. It was probably 1/2 the cost of new given the extras and has led me to the point that I bought a newer larger and am looking to sell my starter machine.
Didnāt mention that mine is for sale 
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@SLCJedi I totally agreeā¦ I bought my first SO4 new and while It wasnāt the cheapest $$ on the market the cost of it was/is my incentive to learn and create. That and the outstanding support both from C3D and here on the forum not to mention the quality of the machine. You get what you pay for.
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For me, in a business, if a tool fails me once or twice especially when I first use it, it usually gets pushed aside (or kicked aside depending on my frustration level) for good. Reliability is extremely important to me the older I get. When youāre trying to get real work done, you need confidence that the machine is going to perform consistently at every use.
Even with the outstanding support from the Carbide 3D team and the encouragement from this community, there were several moments where I was close to walking away completely. If I hadnāt already made a significant investment up frontā¦and if I didnāt have a wife who knew exactly how to encourage me to keep going, I probably would have said, āMaybe this just isnāt for me.ā
Thatās why I think recommending the ultra low-cost machine in this video can unintentionally set people up for frustration, disappointment, and possibly abandoning the hobby altogether. For many newbies, those first experiences matter tremendously. If the machine is fighting them right from the get-go, they may never get far enough to discover how awesome CNC work can actually be.
Iām not saying people need to spend a lot. But reliability, support, and a solid user experience are worth far more than the cheapest possible starting priceā¦ and that is exactly what Carbide 3d has provided from even before I purchased my CNC. A good first experience builds confidence. A bad one can end a personās hobby before it even starts.
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