Milling small parts out of 1/8" cast acrylic

I am now ready to begin ‘mass production’ of a product that I’ve been working on but I’m having the toughest time getting a consistent result for keeping the stock on the table.

I’m using 1/8" acrylic. I found a nice feed and speed for my bit but maybe I need to go even slower? Cutting the stuff at .025" per pass at 40 IPM roughing. Knocking that about halfway for finishing and pencil is about 5 IPM. Plunge is kept the same as the feed rate.

Either the stock comes off completely when the job nears completion (isn’t that always the case?) or it shifts slightly causing the finish pass to be off a little. This happens when cutting out a single piece out of the stock but is magnified greatly when trying to do a lot of them at the same time out of the same stock in the same pass (I assume this has something to do with the torque on the stock from a large percentage of it being milled? Hopefully that doesn’t sound stupid.).

I’m using the double sided tape that came with the Nomad but have some of this stuff coming today: http://www.amazon.com/XFasten-Indoor-Carpet-Double-Inches/dp/B0141L81GS?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00

I can’t use clamps or a vice of any kind since I’m cutting the pieces out and they are so tiny to begin with. Any recommendations for getting past this problem? I need to keep the acrylic in a polished (ready to go) state when taking it off of the waste board so that may remove some method that I’m not aware of that could ordinarily be used?

The simple answer might be to add tabs to your parts. This will require some minor cleanup to your parts on the sidewall.

Slower does not necessarily lead to better finish. One has to move the end mill appropriately for its RPMs to get an acceptable result. Changing feeds and speeds for your finish is definitely something that we do… one will need to experiment.

mark

If the tape you have coming doesn’t help, the Nitto tape, mentioned here, is fantastic :

Failing that, you could try fixturing wax, which Carbide 3D sells. Assuming you leave the protective sticky paper on the acrylic, I think you could get it off the wax with little trouble.

@MrHume I have some green fixturing wax but figured it overkill for this. The problem is really two fold. If I go past the depth of the acrylic backing paper the acrylic and backing paper will sometimes come off or move a little on the tape. If I mill just through so it is above the backing paper it will sometimes cause the acrylic to move or come off of the backing paper. Almost like I can’t win.

I’ve read that I shouldn’t still the paper first but is that true? Maybe I should tape directly to the acrylic?

@ApolloCrowe I would rather avoid tabs if at all possible. I thought about it, but it would cause a lot of trouble.

Maybe you can make an inlay that the acrylic just fits in and either put the acrylic in it and run tape across the top and over the inlay board in all directions, OR drill a bunch of holes in the inlay board and use suction from a vacuum to hold the acrylic down. Those may seem overkill but if you are mass producing you should think about the time saved / product not wasted by making a good holding system.

Carpet tape is very difficult to remove from acrylic. You can put painters tape on the acrylic then superglue that to painters tape on the wasteboard. The part needs enough surface area so the milling forces don’t overcome the adhesive force of the tape.

Okay, I finally found a winning combination but I have a maddening problem now that I can’t seem to figure out. I’m doing three passes on this thing. I have the acrylic (with backing) mounted to the new carpet tape that I got and it is holding things extremely well when working this way:

  1. Run a roughing pass, finish (waterline and pencil) (as if a complete project) at 2 mm depth (remember the thickness is 3.2 mm)
  2. Run my corner rounder while the stock is being held down with the remaining 1.2 mm of stock
  3. Switch back to the Onsrud 63-751 and do a pencil finish only to essentially cut the part out.

This works fantastically well EXCEPT that the pencil finish is leaving a 0.1 mm thickness around each part which is making it unusable. It is really hard to get a picture of a 0.1 mm problem but it is around the entire part that I’m cutting out and is the thickness of the stock that I left when running the first step.

I’ve tried pencil finish, cutout only, and doing a waterline instead…but nothing is taking away that 0.1 mm of stock that was left. FWIW I have my roughing pass in step 1 (the only step with a roughing pass) set to leave 0.1 mm of stock.

FWIW, my corner rounding pass isn’t causing the issue as its thickness is only 0.9 mm however it is smooth on the edge between the first and second steps. The third step is the problem and I can’t figure out what I’m doing wrong. The problem doesn’t exist if I do it all in one step. I would do that, but I can’t because of the corner rounding need and the fact that if I rough to the bottom and then do a finish pass, the part doesn’t have enough surface area to stick to the table anymore.

I think I’m in over my head here. :worried:

Runout?

http://docs.carbide3d.com/article/47-measuring-runout

@WillAdams …but I’m using the same exact cutter as in step one with the same zeroing? I’m so confused as to why changing a tool between steps would cause the .1 mm difference. Willing to give things a try if anyone has recommendations. I feel as if I have reached the limit of experiments that I can run to try and correct this.

My suggestion would be to start by calibrating / checking the machine using the traditional diamond-circle-square test: http://www.shapeoko.com/wiki/index.php/Calibration_and_Squaring_the_Machine#Diamond_Circle_Square_Test

For the heck of it I just decided to run the final (third) pass that cuts the parts out of the stock at a much slower IPM and plunge (5 IPM with 5 plunge). This results in a sidewall that is flush with that of the first pass which ran at 40 IPM. I can’t even guess as to why this worked? Anyone? I don’t believe in magic.

Also see http://www.shapeoko.com/wiki/index.php/Climb_vs._Conventional_Milling

This works fantastically well EXCEPT that the pencil finish is leaving a 0.1 mm thickness around each part which is making it unusable.

Can you please post the MeshCAM parameter screen?

What is the diameter of the Onsrud 63-751 as entered into MeshCAM? You’re using mm but the part is inches. Is the conversion correct?

mark

The Nomad has very small runout, especially when it is new (which I believe yours is). That said @WillAdams has a point… sometimes things don’t run as one thinks they should. His suggestion of Climb vs. conventional is also good.

Going back over what you report I’m pretty sure I know what happened - end mill deflection AND milling type. :smiling_imp:

Run the end mill too fast and it defects. Too fast is defined as moving it faster than the flutes can clear away material.

Deflection is NASTY as it increases DRAMATICALLY with “stick out” (from collet bottom to end mill bottom).

The deflection can be significant for small diameter end mills. This can lead to being way off mark with a milling job, often is very unusual ways.

I’ve seen people milling with a tiny end mills where the deflection was larger than the diameter of the end mill!

Deflection is further influenced by the type of milling (climb vs. conventional).

http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCCNCMillFeedsSpeedsClimbConventional.htm

May I recommend G-Wizard?

http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCGWizard.html

Properly initialized and used (it’s easy!), it will advise you about feeds and speeds and warn you about deflection, even recommending how to avoid deflection.

mark

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@mbellon

You have me pretty convinced that deflection is my issue here. I did purchase a copy of G-Wizard and I’m using it, but I accounted for too much deflection. It looks as if I should make my roughing pass a max deflection of .001 and my finish passes at .0002. That makes my milling times multiply greatly which isn’t ideal.

I’m wondering if I really even need the roughing pass since I’m cutting a straight vertical wall through the stock? Could I just set a finish pass with waterline, do my corner rounding pass, and then finish up with another finish with pencil cleanup?

I do notice that the climb milling is rough on the stock but if I were able to get rid of the roughing pass it wouldn’t matter anyway, correct? If you deselect roughing in Meshcam then how is finishing done (obviously a noob question)?

Thanks!

You have me pretty convinced that deflection is my issue here.

Incorrect tool diameters when mixing Imperial and metric units is not uncommon. My first post.

Then I thought about it, reread what you’re trying to do, noticed the rate, and looked up the diameter of the end mill. The lightbulb went off.

Deflection is ALWAYS an issue, even with “super material composition” end mills. All it takes is pushing an end mill into a material faster than the flutes can clear the material and one has deflection.

When working with 0.125" (or 3mm) end mills and smaller, the deflection issue becomes critical. It is SO EASY to deflect that unusual things happen.

Understanding how conventional/climb milling cause forces on the end mill and which direction they are pushing really helps to understand how weird a finish can come out when deflection is running amok.

That makes my milling times multiply greatly which isn’t ideal

You’ve entered the realm of a more experienced machinist. It’s all about trading off machining time and finish quality. Remember that a roughing pass leaves material behind intentionally. This protects the ideal surface underneath. When there is a lot of material to remove, one can go fast as long as it doesn’t harm the machine and end mill - and damage the protective layer to the point that it touches the ideal surface.

In high end machines and milling, there is often 2 roughing passes - hogging and roughing. The former requires POWER (which the Nomad does not have but an SO3 may be able to do in some cases) but basically it is a messy, noisy pass going super fast to removing material as fast as possible. Then slow down and remove a bit more material via a brisk pass (the roughing of MeshCAM). Obviously one hogs when the geometry of the part requires a great deal of stock removal.

Hogging can heat end mills to hundreds of degrees Centigrade so please do not experiment with it unless one is prepared. Hogging (for all intents and purposes) requires coated end mills that have a coating that can withstand the temperature and any chemical reactions with the stock (material).

Those nice glass like finishes don’t often get that way in a one pass. Often one finishes 2 or 3 different ways; the settings have to be well understood to. Even there, there are tool marks. As long as they are not noticed by the eye (which is amazingly sensitive), one is done.

I’m wondering if I really even need the roughing pass since I’m cutting a straight vertical wall through the stock? Could I just set a finish pass with waterline, do my corner rounding pass, and then finish up with another finish with pencil cleanup?

You’re understanding things correctly. If all one is doing is cutting out cookies (with an expensive cook cutter) then all on needs is a waterline pass - to cut away the material without stressing things - followed by a pencil pass to remove as many tool marks as you can.

MeshCAM is presenting three types of milling common for 3D work - remove the bulk material and two ways to achieve a good finish. Nothing prevents one from using the three techniques in any fashion that makes sense. If one doesn’t need to bulk remove material, don’t use it - that’s what the check boxes are for! :smile:

Furthermore, nothing says that MeshCAM cannot be run multiple times! The operations could be intentionally separated - different G code files, each with one type of milling. With complex objects, MeshCAM can be run multiple times and one lands up with many passes. @Randy is a wiz at doing this.

Higher end CAM programs allow more than three passes and allow specifying operations on specific features. It’s not uncommon to have 10, 15, or more operations defined. Then the high end CAM program figures out what can be optimized, what can removed, and what the ordering should be. The final result is the best result in the minimal time. This is why they are expensive… they do a lot of work for you and remove manual steps.

mark

I did purchase a copy of G-Wizard and I’m using it, but I accounted for too much deflection.

When configuring a Nomad, please make sure that the spindle “Adjust” button is hit and the “weigh adjust for small machine is used”. Refrain from using aggressive roughing… the Nomad spindle just can’t go there.

I just found out that there is a spindle efficiency paper available from C3D. If I can get ahold of that I can work up a G-Wizard for the Nomad with the actual spindle characteristics (rather than the simple, blanket, derate for small).

It looks as if I should make my roughing pass a max deflection of .001 and my finish passes at .0002.

The roughing guideline is a good one, the finish is a bit extreme considering that C3D machines do not have repeatability below 0.001". I use 0.0005" myself but I’m well aware that it is overkill.

@mbellon I truly appreciate your help (and everyone else’s help in this thread). I think I’m finally on the right track but the speed is killing me! As long as I end up with accurate parts then I’ll live with it (for now). I need to know that I can ship out anything that I make before I go too far with worrying about production speed. I realize that the Nomad is more of a tinkering tool and not meant for pass production of anything, but my volume is likely to be low enough to meet the expectations of the Nomad.

I spent quite a bit of time in G-Wizard this morning. I’m not skipping the roughing pass and just doing a waterline and pencil finish. Step down is .4 mm with a feed rate of 4.5. The sound from the machine is much more pleasant now that I’m pushing 40 IPM, but my job went from ~25 minutes on the first pass to ~130 minutes. I did one part with all three steps and got an almost glass like finish which I’m very happy with. Funny thing is…I had adjusted my CAD model to account for the deflection not realizing that’s what was causing things to be out of whack with my part. After running things as recommended by G-Wizard I had to go back to my CAD model and tighten things up a little.

This is a custom LEGO compatible brick (think of a spill in the corner…alien blood, water, blood, etc). LEGO is notorious for having extreme accuracy so I need to make sure any custom piece that I make meets the same standards and ‘clicks’ when you snap it on a board.

If you look super hard you can still see a slight bit of deflection from the last pass. The deflection is greater on that pass when compared to the first pass because I’m cutting out a much thicker material at once. I can live with it though.

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There are several companies running products on the Nomad. Some with non-trivial volumes.

Despite it’s size, it is a true, high quality CNC mill… with a small spindle. Machining will be slow compared to a 5 HP Haas.

Yes, your correct, the Nomad is largely spindle limited. We should ask for a 400W or 800W in the next version, maybe with a 9x12x3 work volume. I still want it to fit comfortably on a desk. An enclosure designed for vacuum tubing would be nice too.

I had adjusted my CAD model to account for the deflection not realizing that’s what was causing things to be out of whack with my part. After running things as recommended by G-Wizard I had to go back to my CAD model and tighten things up a little.

Another wonderful lesson learned. Your CAD model is the only true expression of your idea. Don’t fiddle with it to make the machining come out - fiddle with the CAM software and machining parameters.

There is yet another lesson too! SOUND! With experience, the sound of an end mill moving though a material is an important indicator of the cut and finish quality. With practice, one can know within seconds if their machine is pushing things too far for safe/effective roughing and/or a good finish.

On larger machines I actually touch the machine and “feel the spirit” of a job. Like sound, vibration (which really vibrations we sense with our ears), is a valuable indicator.

I did one part with all three steps and got an almost glass like finish which I’m very happy with.

Are you running the G-Wizard fine finish? That gives glass like finishes very slowly.

before I go too far with worrying about production speed

I think I’m finally on the right track but the speed is killing me!

Correctness first, then optimize. With experience, the early correctness runs are much closer to the production run speed.

With some more advanced MeshCAM usage, I’m confident the machine time can be cut in half or more. Machinists have more things in their bag of tricks than Felix.

Here is one suggestion: Why use a 1/16" end mill when all you’re doing is a cut out? Use an 0.125" and go much faster! Production is all about tradeoffs. Wasting a bit more material but going much faster can be a good thing.

mark

P.S.

Your use of Onsrud single flute end mill warms the soul! Onsrud tools seem expensive until one uses them. They are functional works of art. Highly recommended.

P.P.S.

I use them for plastic and Al alloy work myself.