Multiple layers flatten into single layer --disappointment

I’m on build 530 by the way, from June of 2021. (I’m afraid to update in the middle of a project.) If my complaint is out of date, then I apologize in advance. I searched the discussions and didn’t see any mention of changes the the way layers work.

I’ve been making active use of layers for a while now and was thrilled when they became available. Unfortunately, it seems there are many commands that unexpectedly flatten all my hard worked layers into a single layer. The latest example, which is the reason I post here now, is if you select objects from multiple layers and group them, they will group, but also they will all get pushed into the active layer. Thanks, but if I wanted them to all go to one layer I would have done that. To add to the surprise, one can’t even see that the layers have been screwed up because they are all selected and the layer colors are masked with the “object selected” color so it is only after doing potentially a bunch more operations (in my case a series of scalings and alignments) that you even have an opportunity to discover the issue. I’ve seen the discussions where people point out why this feature isn’t good. I’m unable to follow the discussion as to why it is thought to be good. It seems that one could always flatten the layers be selecting the objects and then doing the “move selected objects to this layer” operation. I have many many objects all carefully drawn on multiple layers for a reason. Many of the objects are duplicated and overlayed over each other on multiple layers. It is extremely difficult to by hand re-sort back into layers after flattening so it makes any operation that secretly flattens a taboo operation.

Could someone explain again why it is ever a good idea to have tools with a side effect of changing the layering? It would make me feel better to know that the side effect that is killing me is useful for some people.

Otherwise, I love the Carbide Create and love my Shapeoko.

Grouping predates layers and trumps layering.

It is possible to have one or more grouped objects on a layer, but not possible for a group to have objects which are on separate layers.

If you update to the current version:

you will find a number of features which will allow you to work in a way to allow not using groups, in particular, associating toolpaths w/ layers.

If you really get stuck on a file organization issue, send it in to projects@carbide3d.com and we will do our best to assist.

If your saying that the group tool needs updating before it will work properly with multiple layers then that is understandable and I sympathize, though it would be great if it just returned an error when trying to group multiple layers. But I don’t think you agree with me about believing the current function is incorrect. Could you give an example of when one might WANT to crush the layers together when grouping, or copying or arraying?

I often work with multiple layers, using them to define multiple geometries which will be used to make a part — I then select all the geometries, group them, and move them to the layer for that part.

I should add that even a sophisticated drawing package like Adobe illustrator crushes groups into a single layer, so carbide create is probably function in the “conventional way”.

My biggest complaint on the layering is the UI is very cumbersome. Too many clicks to get perform an operation and the layers dialog is modal (i.e. you can’t work on the underlying art while the layers dialog is open).

Be nice if clicking the icon toggled the visibility and clicking the lock toggled the lock.

But Will, couldn’t you just use the layer command “bring selected objects to this layer” to do that. It seems you are using a broken side effect of the grouping command to do something that already exists in a more natural way and then leaving the broken grouping command such that people who don’t want to flatten a group (or copy or array) every time no matter what are stuck.

I want all the elements of a part to be in a group, hence the grouping.

One has to move them to a particular layer to ensure that they are on the desired layer, rather than the active layer — the other way to do this would be:

  • bring up the Layers palette and set the desired Layer to be the active layer
  • select the elements which make up the part
  • group them, which then moves them to the Active layer

Yes, please. (I’m assuming that that is so obvious that there is a technical reason why it wasn’t put in. I commiserate with ‘too hard’.)

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I do something similar. I put all the building blocks of a component in a “source” layer. Select the components I want and bring them into my default layer. Then I might do some boolean operations. This is useful in case I want to change a size to a component. I just wish the layer operations were a little more user friendly

I won’t keep harping on this. It seems layers was built with a particular usage in mind and it doesn’t happen to be mine.

For the record, here is what I was doing when I tripped over the issue this time. I have a lot of layers representing certain things. I wanted to aligned an area with many objects spread over many layers to another object. I select the many objects, but if I align without grouping then the many objects lose their relative positioning and all align as individual objects. If I group first, I can maintain their relative positions during the aligning, but then I lose the layering.

My work-around is to insert a bounding box around my many objects. Then align a copy of the bounding box. Then select the many objects and the original bounding box and slide it to the previously aligned copy of the bounding box using using snap to node so I’m sure they line up.

I’ve had similar issues with copying but with no work around other than copying layer by layer with a similar artificial bounding box to ensure proper positioning after copying. I’ve got 10 layers so it isn’t much fun.

CNCNewbie, it seems you and Will are both using layers almost like multiple sheets of paper where you are drawing on one sheet while copying stuff from lower sheets. I’m using layers more like different colors of pens on a single sheet and I don’t want (and NEVER want) the already drawn objects to suddenly change colors without my say-so. The colors have specific meanings and are different on purpose. Making it worse, the objects on the layers are heavily overlapped and difficult to separate once merged together.

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It’s funny you mention that use case. That’s the exact problem I had years ago with Adobe illustrator, when prepping parts for a laser cutter. I had my cuts ordered inner to outer with an engraving pass. This was for model rocket parts so essentially I was cutting a bunch of concentric circles, so order was really important (I had to cut inner circles first.) I put each depth of cut in a separate layer. However, when I wanted to align them, the easiest way was grouping. This smushed them into a single layer which wasn’t acceptable. I think my workaround was similar with a bounding box.

For your other issue, that could be tricky. If objects stayed in the same layer, that would negate Will and my use case. However, the solution would be to offer a “Paste Remembers Layers” option as in illustrator so you could select the behavior on paste. As for a work around, how good are your programming skills. :grinning: The c2d files are essentially JSON. I’ve directly hacked c2d files because I wanted to copy objects from one file to another, which you can’t do easily in carbide create.

That was true for v6 and earlier. v7 files use a new file format.

You could always save as V6 to hack the file then work in V7. Also, looks like the v7 file isn’t too hard to reverse engineer, but don’t know if it is considered proprietary so I don’t want to post it. Plus if it is anything like the V6 format there might be some important information appended to the end of the file. (If you look at V6 there is some binary past the JSON).

Vectric allows grouping of objects. When objects (on various layers) are grouped, the group is assigned to the active layer. Each grouped object’s layer is saved with the object.

If one wants to un-group, then the option is presented to allow the objects to be returned to their saved layer or the grouped layer.

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At least one drawing program had a checkbox option:

Ungroup remembers layers

which would send objects back to their original layers on ungrouping — it would be a nice option for Carbide Create for some folks, but not sure it would be worth implementing.

And when CAD was developed, that was the intent, as up to that time in history Draftsmen would use clear mylar film when drafting complex projects, hence the term “layer”.

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cad2008-04

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0704cartoon

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Hi Steve, yes, the good old days. I used to design workstations and we would travel the world talking to users and potential users to understand their workflows to make sure what we were building was comfortable for them to use (ie–allowed them to work THEIR historic way) but also allowed them to evolve their work into new, better, faster and smarter ways (to fully take advantage of the technology.) I always remember the Doctors who said they had spend decades reading film X-rays and didn’t want us to do any image processing that might get them a better view because they were nervous they might then misinterpret things. OK…but we could make your lives much easier and make your patients much healthier. No!

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