I was actually looking at the upcoming HDM as well but I’m in Canada and i saw that shipping is only available within the US right now. It is a great looking machine though and looks like it would be the best of both worlds.
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Since you’re a professional I would network with others in your business group or through a local supply shop that talks to a lot of other folks. I find that when I dabble in a new profession its a completely different world and I realize how little I actually know about day-to-day issues in their world. I suspect Shapeoko wouldn’t be a great fit IMHO given your description but I would buy the counter guy at the local supply a Starbucks (oops Tim Horton) and see what they say.
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Ha, I’m already very used to bringing in coffee and donuts whenever i need one of my local material suppliers to do me a favour. I completely understand that i’m facing a pretty steep learning curve as i’m a newcomer to the CNC world and i’m sure there are 100’s of little problems i’ll run into that i never even thought about. In your opinion, is there anything in particular about the shapeoko that should stop me from purchasing one for my application?. I wont be trying anything to crazy in the beginning, just a series of pretty small basic 2d shapes from aluminum sheet. I’m at the point with my business that I really need to have a way to mass produce pieces in house ( or garage in my case) 
Best thing is to draw up a design, then work out the feeds and speeds and toolpaths, and get a 3D preview, simulating the G-Code — if you find that comfortable to do, the balance is just a matter of sourcing and prepping the stock, securing it in place, setting zero relative to it, and cutting it out.
My context is I have been using the Shapeoko for about 7 years with many upgrades. For me it is a hobby machine working mostly with wood(s) and plastics. I do signmaking for folks but mostly gifts like ornaments.
My impression of what you were looking for was:
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Improving your throughput. – I consider the Shapeoko a highly manual machine. Lots of fiddling needed to set things up in spite of all the add-on boxes they keep inventing to make things a little quicker. Industrial machines tend to have a lot more process automation built in (automatic bit changing, etc).
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Working with metals. – there are folks doing this but I think the reality is that if you are focused on metals you probably want a machine with coolant and a powerful spindle (i.e. not a repurposed trim router). The nomad actually seems to be more of a metal machine.
You didn’t mention software but for me that is at least as much of an investment as the machine. Knowing what software you use/plan to use would narrow the choices.
I am happy with my Shapeoko for doing my hobby work but if I was earning a living doing CNC work, particularly metal based work, I would probably look for something a little more tuned to my application.
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That said, a lot of folks do well w/ metals:
and the industrial metal machines are quite a bit more expensive.
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Do you need or would you like to run any 2.5D or 3D toolpaths or do any engraving? Or do you need to change the designs very often?
One question you might ask yourself is whether a router/mill is the right tool for the job. If you just need to cut out shapes, you might be better off with a laser or plasma cutter instead (or in addition).
You may also consider some kind of automatic punching machine that just stamps the parts out of sheet metal in one go. You’d need custom dies for your designs but you’d only need a few of those so you could outsource them.
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I don’t have any intentions of tackling anything too complex, just very basic 2d shapes out of .064 and .080 aluminum sheet. Maybe a little engraving text as well. I have looked at plasma and laser cutters but they all seem a little out of my price range.
I would stick with a higher rpm that a router gives you for this type of work. You would be surprised at how much an rpm jump from 30k Router to 24k spindle is in terms of feedrates.
There’s also the question of acceleration difference from belts (s3,s4, Pro) to ballscrews. While stuff like this doesn’t really matter on one piece, when you start doing decent quantities like planned, every bit counts. The HDM does have fast travel screws though, so we’ll see how it boogies when they start rolling out.
I’ve seen this first hand when doing production runs of polycarbonate at work. Started out using a Tormach 24r (ballscrews, spindle) then moved the job to the Shapeoko Pro XXL because of increased feeds with higher rpm. Also, the strength and rigidity differences in machine won’t really start to be seen until you start pushing end mills over 1/8". By the sounds of what you need to do, I would think you would rarely use anything large regularly.
Imo a Pro Xl would be my pick. That way you aren’t so deep into a machine purchase before you find out how cnc integrates into your workflow. If that works out, go HDM and drop in a 36,000rpm spindle for a speed demon with small tools.
These machines are great force multipliers and the hardest part will be trying not to watch it work the whole time.
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Thanks for the advice. For the kind of work i mentioned, you think going up to the pro instead of the 4 would be worthwhile? I know the added rigidity of the linear rails would likely help with cut quality. The only reason I ask is one thing I like about the 4 is the option of the standard 17 x 17 size which would fit a little better in my shop. I can make the xl work however so that’s not a deal breaker. Also, and apologies if this is a stupid question, but are recommending a more powerful router then the Carbide?
The router/spindle question was pretty thoroughly explored in:
I indulged myself in a Mafell spindle, mostly for the tool change, somewhat for the cool factor — I do a lot of test cuts and some days it felt as if I spent more time wrenching on the collets than the machine spent cutting.
Probably you’d do well starting w/ the ER-11 Carbide Compact Router:
then if you find the need to further decrease cutting times/increase material removal rates you could move over to the HDM spindle on an HDZ once it’s available.
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For your specific uses, more power shouldn’t be needed. The shallow cuts you’ll be doing anyway are well within the abilities of the C3D Router.
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One other question: I was going to purchase the endmill starter pack but i figure i might be better off just buying a few bits that I know i’ll use instead. Any recommendations on the bits that might suit my needs the best would be greatly appreciated.
For smaller scale work, I’d recommend the Nomad starter pack:
and would also get some #501 and #502s for spares since I believe you’ll be using them the most (assuming lots of engraving) — which size endmill you use for cutting out/around the parts will need to be balanced against material removal rate and time and the expense of the material.
Best thing to do is to draw up a sample project or two, research appropriate tooling at:
and see if that affords a feel for what sort of tooling you’ll need.
I’ve just been digesting all the great advice i’ve received so far but i’m still having a hard time deciding between the s4 and the pro. I apologize for the noob question , but what is it exactly that makes the linear rails on the pro so much better then the standard v wheels? I’ve never actually seen a machine in person so i’m trying to visualize how all the parts move together. I’ve also seen some talk about how maintenance is an issue on the pro, what is it exactly that makes it so tricky? From my understanding, don’t you just need to wipe down the rails after each use and apply some oil from time to time? Thanks again.
The linear rails impart greater rigidity — the tradeoff is one of maintenance:
- the linear rails of a pro would require on-going maintenance in terms of lubrication, see: Rail and linear guide maintenance
- the Delrin V wheels of an SO4 are maintenance free for day-to-day usage (or non-usage), simply requiring that things be kept clean, but will eventually require replacement when worn
In the event of a really bad crash, the Delrin V wheels sometimes give way, and if so, are easily and inexpensively replaced — for a Pro this might involve damage to the block/bearings or possibly the endmill or the belts (but no one has crashed/damaged one to that degree that I’ve been made aware of that I can recall).
After having used a V-wheel machine for a few years I will never get another. Don’t get me wrong, I love my Shapeoko 3 but I would never get a V-wheel machine knowing what I do now if I could afford a linear rail machine. The V-wheels on the 4 are better than the 3 but I don’t know by how much. I would argue that V-wheel maintenance is significantly more work than linear rail maintenance. The surfaces the wheel rides on needs to be kept clean or you will get excessive wear. This is very difficult. Chips and dust get caught in them all the time. Linear rails have wipers on the bearing blocks to keep dust and chips out of the bearings. If you are making money with it, I see no reason to pick the 4 over the Pro. The integrated BitSetter on the Pro is also a major plus for a business use case.
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I have a 3xxl with hdz, BitRunner, BitZero and BitSetter. So I have the pinacle of the SO3. I only cut wood. If I were to get a new machine I would get the pro. If you assume the life of a hobby machine is 10 years and you divide the price by 10 the yearly price is what to look at. Also the support and forum are excellent. I am on other forums and xcarve is not nearly as robust as C3D. There are other machines that try to do all but c3d is better on my opinion. I had a Shark and sold it. The Shark forum is as dead as thier machines.
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And I’ve machined parts and rebuilt to replace the V wheels with linear rails on my SO3, I would also suggest that you go for the Pro with the linear rails. I’d take the hit of buying some Mobil Vactra way oil and occasionally lubricating the rails over having to tension and adjust and maintain and put up with the deflections of the V Wheels.
Thanks for your insight, it’s much appreciated. I will most like put this in my garage, I live in Toronto and our swings in weather had me a little worried with the pro but hopefully if i stay on top of things it shouldn’t be too much of a problem.