The router/spindle question was pretty thoroughly explored in:
I indulged myself in a Mafell spindle, mostly for the tool change, somewhat for the cool factor — I do a lot of test cuts and some days it felt as if I spent more time wrenching on the collets than the machine spent cutting.
Probably you’d do well starting w/ the ER-11 Carbide Compact Router:
then if you find the need to further decrease cutting times/increase material removal rates you could move over to the HDM spindle on an HDZ once it’s available.
One other question: I was going to purchase the endmill starter pack but i figure i might be better off just buying a few bits that I know i’ll use instead. Any recommendations on the bits that might suit my needs the best would be greatly appreciated.
For smaller scale work, I’d recommend the Nomad starter pack:
and would also get some #501 and #502s for spares since I believe you’ll be using them the most (assuming lots of engraving) — which size endmill you use for cutting out/around the parts will need to be balanced against material removal rate and time and the expense of the material.
Best thing to do is to draw up a sample project or two, research appropriate tooling at:
and see if that affords a feel for what sort of tooling you’ll need.
I’ve just been digesting all the great advice i’ve received so far but i’m still having a hard time deciding between the s4 and the pro. I apologize for the noob question , but what is it exactly that makes the linear rails on the pro so much better then the standard v wheels? I’ve never actually seen a machine in person so i’m trying to visualize how all the parts move together. I’ve also seen some talk about how maintenance is an issue on the pro, what is it exactly that makes it so tricky? From my understanding, don’t you just need to wipe down the rails after each use and apply some oil from time to time? Thanks again.
the Delrin V wheels of an SO4 are maintenance free for day-to-day usage (or non-usage), simply requiring that things be kept clean, but will eventually require replacement when worn
In the event of a really bad crash, the Delrin V wheels sometimes give way, and if so, are easily and inexpensively replaced — for a Pro this might involve damage to the block/bearings or possibly the endmill or the belts (but no one has crashed/damaged one to that degree that I’ve been made aware of that I can recall).
After having used a V-wheel machine for a few years I will never get another. Don’t get me wrong, I love my Shapeoko 3 but I would never get a V-wheel machine knowing what I do now if I could afford a linear rail machine. The V-wheels on the 4 are better than the 3 but I don’t know by how much. I would argue that V-wheel maintenance is significantly more work than linear rail maintenance. The surfaces the wheel rides on needs to be kept clean or you will get excessive wear. This is very difficult. Chips and dust get caught in them all the time. Linear rails have wipers on the bearing blocks to keep dust and chips out of the bearings. If you are making money with it, I see no reason to pick the 4 over the Pro. The integrated BitSetter on the Pro is also a major plus for a business use case.
I have a 3xxl with hdz, BitRunner, BitZero and BitSetter. So I have the pinacle of the SO3. I only cut wood. If I were to get a new machine I would get the pro. If you assume the life of a hobby machine is 10 years and you divide the price by 10 the yearly price is what to look at. Also the support and forum are excellent. I am on other forums and xcarve is not nearly as robust as C3D. There are other machines that try to do all but c3d is better on my opinion. I had a Shark and sold it. The Shark forum is as dead as thier machines.
And I’ve machined parts and rebuilt to replace the V wheels with linear rails on my SO3, I would also suggest that you go for the Pro with the linear rails. I’d take the hit of buying some Mobil Vactra way oil and occasionally lubricating the rails over having to tension and adjust and maintain and put up with the deflections of the V Wheels.
Thanks for your insight, it’s much appreciated. I will most like put this in my garage, I live in Toronto and our swings in weather had me a little worried with the pro but hopefully if i stay on top of things it shouldn’t be too much of a problem.
I’ve been visiting the forum frequently over the past few months and it definitely seems like a great community with solid support from Carbide3d. The 30 days “you break it, we fix it” policy is amazing. The only other machine i’ve considered is the onefinity, its seems to have a lot going for it with the design and built in control. The fact that they are Toronto based as well is definitely appealing. I still keep coming back to the shapeoko however, its just seems to offer a more complete package overall.
More than 1/2 of any CNC job is workholding, if you get it wrong you’ll mess up the job, it can be a giant pain fighting with poor workholding, when you get it right it’s quick and easy to align and hold down the work and get on with cutting. Bad workholding will cost you time, every job, you’ll burn time, effort and enthusiasm on setup and clamping.
A solid base to hold the machine square and the workpiece flat and rigid is non-negotiable, it doesn’t matter how rigid a machine’s mechanics may be, if they’re mounted on Jello, you get Jello.
If you take a look a the Pro you’ll see that there’s quite a lot of the machine below the spoilboard and much of the iteration and development that Carbide has put into this is to keep the whole machine, including the spoilboard and workpiece rigid and square. The closely spaced T Tracks for workholding are also very handy.
If the machine comes without the bottom half and you have to build that, there’s a time and materials budget to go with that part of the job. You’ll need a rigid surface, probably a torsion box or a load of 8020 extrusions, a spoilboard on top of this to level with the machine and cut through to and some plan and parts for workholding as well.
Onefinity has realized the importance of a base/spoilboard and holding options and now offers a clone (without the close spacing) of Carbide3D’s hybrid table - for upwards of $500 additional.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see Onefinity’s next gen HD machine swaps the round rails to dual HGH 15s mounted to extrusions with wider X axis end plates and a true base along with bigger steppers. The unsupported round rails and lack of a true base are what kept me from even considering purchasing one.
Once my HDM gets here it’s simply a matter of getting it on my work bench and setting the 8020 enclosure over it. But the 2.5x price difference does sting but I am physically limited so a turn key machine fits my needs and I can make it pay for its self fairly easy.
Getting a pro over a 4 depends on how your finances are looking. If there is ample room you won’t be disappointed with getting a pro over a 4. It will also maintain a higher resale value having linear rails should you ever decide to sell it. One could even add ball screws or helical rack and pinion in the future with a few custom brackets and it wouldn’t surprise me if someone is already working on doing just that as we speak.
Uninsulated garage? The hot and cold swings will condense moisture onto metal surfaces and rust can form on steel parts. I’m not talking about the Shapeoko rails in particular, just in general here.
But also think of it this way: your Z axis will have two lengths of rail regardless. If steel rails actually rusts so badly without any attention, then your Z axis will be screwed in any case. If the rust is manageable with some maintenance, then doing the maintenance on a few more rails should not be so troublesome.
My machine has lived in the garage it’s whole life along with many other tools. The temperature ranges from about 5 F (-15 C) to 105 F (~40 C) out there and I have never had any issues.
I just wanted to say thanks again to everyone for sharing their thoughts and advice. I pulled the trigger on a Pro XL yesterday with a handful of endmills to go along with it. I’m a little worried about the assembly so i’m sure ill be back here soon looking for help
I don’t think a temperature range cares where it is from. Regardless, it appears from a quick google search that the general temperature and dew point averages between Toronto and Salt Lake in the winter are not that far apart. See:
I live in Salt Lake City and haven’t had an issue with rust on my machinery. I’m not bad with lubrication and wax (on things like cast iron machine beds), but I’m not the most diligent either.
