New to CNC, Leaning towards Shapeoko but question - belts vs lead screws/ball screws

CNC Machines
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Hi, everyone. New here and I’m looking to buy my first CNC and leaning strongly towards the Shapeoko 4 XXL or maybe Shapeoko Pro. I love everything I read and watch about Carbide 3D and Shapeoko. The company and community both seem to be very awesome which is a big plus.

A little about myself. I’ve been a guitar technician/luthier for 15 years and spent about 10 years as a senior piano technician. I have a complete wood shop/workshop in my oversized two car garage. I have previously always worked under someone else or a company until recently when I decided to go to work for myself

So enough of the boring and on to my questions lol. As already pointed out I’m new to CNC but I get the fundamentals of how it works and everything but searching via google and you start seeing a lot of gripe about Shapeoko machines using belts and how bad they can be. I keep reading buy only lead screw or ball screw. I read from some who say that belts stretch, inconsistent and all sorts of issues. I find some of these negatives hard to believe but I thought I would go straight to the awesome users of Shapeoko. So are belts really that bad? Are V wheels really that bad? I keep seeing lots of folks on forums and YouTube saying they are buying 1F CNC’ s but as nice looking that 1F CNC’ s look I just don’t feel the company is solid. I feel 1F could bring more to the table for what you pay like Carbide3D and Shapeoko does. I kind of feel like buying a 1F is the cool thing to do because it is so different and new. But being you get no structural frame and bed like you get with the Shapeoko, no software, control box seems subpar and cheap touch display. Again just my opinion. And you don’t see many videos of 1F using the CNC to make anything. Most 1F videos seem to be unboxing/setup fiddling around with talking about it. And no cable management included. Just seems very halfa$$ put together for what you pay, some say 1F was released before it should have. Considering with Shapeoko a couple hours to setup and you can start learning and playing.

Anyways I mention 1F as it seems these two are the two everyone jumps between and I constantly hear others say I left Shapeoko for 1F. So are belts lesser here? Are the ball screws that much better? With belts give that bad of accuracy? Will belts stretch to much? Will belts need constant tightening? Will V wheels constantly have issues and need replaced? I know Carbide3D updated the belts bigger and v wheels are bigger/stronger so these should be much better.

I will be using CNC for woodworking with hardwoods and softwoods for guitar building, guitar parts and accessories. Maybe possibly a little aluminum carving sometimes.

Thanks everyone and looked forward to the replies and any advice.

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Can’t speak to the competition, but the V wheels have been in use since the Shapeoko v1 and work very well, and the Shapeoko 4 uses a new design which is significantly stronger, and the belts are incredibly strong in tension which is how they are used.

We have a bit about the machines at:

https://carbide3d.com/blog/shapeoko-4/

and a broad array of things which folks have made on the machines:

https://carbide3d.com/projects/

and a number of folks have made guitars:

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Thank you, Will. Much appreciate all the links and I’ll look through all them. I started looking into CNC’s a couple months ago and I keep always coming back to Carbide3D/Shapeoko.

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My machine is a Shapoko 3XL it has the original belts and wheels still working on it from day one. I have tested the bounds of them when i ground off the top of some stainless bolts holding my stock clamps, as well as a few minor full depth cuts in 3/4 stock (didn’t do my endmill any good) and I do not see any stretching in the belts and all of the wheels are still in good shape. I think the belts and wheels are as they were designed to be, for my machine ther is no issue.

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What sorts of things do you plan to be making with the machine? What sorts of materials?

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The belts and v-wheels can be considered somewhat replaceable. I’ve broken a few v-wheels in my time, but if there was a leadscrew in place something else would need to break/give. That’s the nice side of having the belts/v-wheels, is the cost to repair/replace is significantly less compared to a more rigid machine that if it encounters something it’s not able to move through, something else is going to give somewhere else on the machine.
Belt stretch can happen. How much is hard to say. I haven’t tightened the belts (and pretty sure no one else has) at the makerspaces shapeoko xxl near me and it’s been a solid 2-3 years. I tested them not too long ago and they are a bit on the loose end, but people are still putting out fine projects even with them being loose.
Hardwood being your main thing, I’d think it’d be fine.
Obviously all of us are likely biased here, though.
The other thing I will say is the support side of things is fantastic on the shapeoko side of things, and might be something to consider.

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I’m fairly new to CNC myself so I’m not the best person to give advice on which type of drive is better.

I’ve cut plywood, solid maple, a bit of mahogany, and not seen any issues with the belts. Hardwoods are fine. No part of the machine feels like it’s inadequate to do anything I’d need to do, or more. The belts don’t stretch. Maybe they could if defective, but not as designed.

I will say that I’ve seen some real masterpieces come off of the shapeoko, but it’s the community, the wider user base, and technical support from carbide 3D that pushed me over the edge to make a purchase of a Shapeoko Pro XXL over all others.

My pre-purchase research taught me that it isn’t uncommon to have some kind of issues setting up a new CNC from any company. Support was an important factor for me, as I didn’t want to be left on my own to figure things out after investing in a 3K machine. My experience with their support team has been excellent, so I have zero regrets.

All that aside - just really wanted to say congratulations for striking out as your own. You will find no better boss than yourself. Best of luck!

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Hi, I plan on using mainly hardwoods such as purpleheart, ebony, cherry, blood wood and some softwoods as well. Building guitar parts, guitar accessories, guitar bodies, guitar necks and other odds not guitar related at times.

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You point out a lot of the very things that have kept me coming back to Carbide3D/Shapeoko. Very very true, thank you

I keep jumping between the Shapeoko 4 XXL and Pro XXL

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Sorry,

Read your post properly this time, hardwood and a bit of Aluminium.

You might want to consider the Shapeoko Pro, the linear rails are a step up from the V wheels, for the extra money.

As Gary and Josh say, the V wheels and belts make for quite a forgiving machine, no ways to oil, things tend to bend instead of break when you inevitably crash the machine, there’s lots of users here who use the machines who can help you out with even the oddest of use cases (engraving stone slabs for example).

I’ve used my SO3 XXL to make all sorts of birch ply, hardwood and Aluminium things, including upgrade parts for the SO3 itself.

The Pro will let you do all the same stuff, but faster and get a slightly better finish on Aluminium etc. straight off the machine. The downside is you need to occasionally oil the linear rails and not let them get rusty.

I would avoid a leadscrew, I find them to combine the unwanted issues of ballscrews and belts in one nasty package. They have significant backlash, you don’t want to climb cut using them, they’re unforgiving etc.

Edit - may also be worth saying, I spent quite a while figuring out whether the toothed belts inherently have backlash, the answer is no, probably less than most ballscrews, they can deflect under heavy cutting loads but if you behave and use roughing then finishing passes, I regularly get within 0.1mm on the first run.

You already pointed out that the 1F is half a machine, it’s missing the table and all the workholding. There may be so many unboxing vids as you point out because 1F marketing sent a machine for free to loads of YouTube makers.

If you take a look through the forums here you’ll see that workholding is a major part of making your machine pleasant and quick to use, the new modular T slot and slats tables on the Pro are excellent for this.

If I was to go elsewhere I’d be looking at an Avid or maybe the X-thing Pro but both of those are substantially more money.

HTH

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The Pro is the machine to get if you’ll be using the machine regularly and pushing it hard, and if machine time translates to money — the 4 is the one to get if you won’t use the machine as often, or are willing to translate a bit of extra machine time into fiscal savings.

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For what it’s worth, I had/have the same materials in mind for what I wanted to cut, and that’s exactly why I went with the Pro XXL over the 4. I felt the pro would give me more flexibility long-term. I don’t know often I’ll be cutting aluminum, but it’s good to know it has the ability if I want it.

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I will note that the SO3 (and by extension the 4) cuts alu. just fine:

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Very nice and lots of great info. I feel your saying exactly how I feel and why keep coming back to Carbide3D/Shapeoko. Thank you :blush:

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Very much, I’m starting to lean towards the Pro.

I’d like be running 4-5 days a week for 5 hours or so each day eventually. Currently I work for myself woodworking 30 hours a week from home and 20 hours a week as a luthier/guitar technician for a guitar manufacturer. My idea is to work only for myself 40+ hours a week. Have the CNC running some of the load and some of the load myself and of course leave the guitar manufacturer I work for.

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It sounds like woodworking as whole is not a hobby that will fall by the wayside in a year or two. As you are already in the field, and if you decide on Shapeoko, I would def recommend the Pro over the 4.

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As someone who loves ballscrews, I think I can give you some reassurance.

Ballscrews make sense when you need oodles of accuracy and rigidity:

  • Ballscrews, as hunks of solid steel, don’t move around a whole lot under load, especially when they’re properly supported at both ends. They have load ratings into the literal ton range.
  • Depending on the screw, they have very little or zero backlash.
  • Your standard China ballscrew is of accuracy grade C7, which means you’ve got a maximum error of ±50µm per 300mm, or an error of ±0.15mm over an entire Shapeoko’s work area.
  • Your slightly nicer China ballscrew is accuracy grade C5, which allows a bit under half the deviation of C7.

So ballscrews are nice but they come with a cost: On a hobby machine, you’re looking at ~$100 per C7 screw on its own, so on a Shapeoko, 2 for Y, 1 for X and 1 for Z, or 4 screws for ~$400. In addition to the screws themselves, you usually need to buy:

  • A fixed support for at least one end of the ballscrew (~$50)
  • A floating support for one end of the ballscrew (~$40)
  • A block to turn the round ballscrew nut into a square mounting surface (~$30)
  • Ballscrew/motor coupling (~$5)

Add up all the needed accessories and you’re looking at ~$250 per screw, or $1000 for a full Shapeoko.

Now compare to belts.

This may be obvious to you but it wasn’t to me: when you use a belt, the strength doesn’t come from the rubber. There’s a core inside the belt made of steel or a high strength fiber like kevlar. The rubber just gives the core padding and grip on the pulleys. This in mind, you can see spec sheets for belts like this one that show you a modest 10mm belt will elongate only 4µm under its 320N load rating. For reference, 320N is around the cutting force you’d experience if you were slotting 6082 Aluminium with a 6mm endmill at a depth of cut of 9.5mm, a feed rate of 2250mm/min and 18k RPM. That cut also maxes out a 2.2kW spindle and I’d be very surprised if the stepper motors on a Shapeoko can keep up with that force.

(320N around a 40mm circumference pulley = 320N on a 6.3mm arm = 2Nm, which is on the high end of what a NEMA23 stepper can handle)

All that to say that belts have the potential to give you a ton more rigidity than your machine really needs. Sure it’s less than a ballscrew but you’re not building a VMC here.

As for accuracy, I haven’t tested this but I believe it’s really down to the accuracy of your motors. The belt itself is essentially just a cable, so there’s not much that can screw it up.

So for all this wonderfully practical rigidity and accuracy, what must you pay? About $5 per belt, plus maybe ~$20 for a couple of pulleys.

The cost of belts is that yes, you may occasionally have to do some fiddling and maintenance, making sure your belts are tensioned properly. If you have a look around this forum, you’ll see plenty of people have come up with creative ways to make that easy.

So for practical purposes on a hobby CNC, they do the job at literally 1/10th of the price.

I’ll also add that ballscrews/leadscrews are not maintenance free. They need to be regularly lubricated and they accumulate disgusting gunk like you wouldn’t believe. They’re also treated as consumables and need to be replaced from time to time, just like belts (though they have very long service lives).

As for V-wheels vs rails, I’d personally recommend linear rails, because they add an insane amount of rigidity without adding too much cost and I get the impression they’re much less of a pain to maintain.

And finally, Carbide 3D, likely not coincidentally, has a spectrum of combinations you can choose from:

  • Belts and V-wheels: Shapeoko 4: $2300
  • Belts and linear rails: Shapeoko Pro: $2800
  • Ballscrews and linear rails: Shapeoko HDM: $4900

As for recommendations, honestly, for wood and very little work with metals, the Shapeoko 3/4 will probably work just fine for you but as others are saying, if you’re cutting a lot, the Shapeoko Pro might be nicer from a maintenance perspective.

But for your original question: you don’t need ballscrews. Maybe if you were cutting metal all day long, but you’re not.

Hopefully this can banish any doubts you have from your mind.

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Very very nice here. Thank you very much for all this information and taking the time. This very much helped out and made lots of sense. Very awesome. I definitely have decided to go for the Shapeoko Pro being how much I plan to use it and the rigidity. I’ve read that with the rigidity comes a slight improvement in speed and accuracy. Yeah I’ve never had a problem with the idea of belts but it seems to be the great argument among some others like 1F owners lol. And as you’ve pointed out the upkeep and replacement part cost of belts and pulleys is minimal.

Super excited to get it here soon and start some fun times.

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They gotta justify their purchase somehow.

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I started with a Shapeoko 3 that eventually had an aluminum extrusion bed, HDZ, and all the accessories. The SO4 and Pro I now have outpace it by a good margin, although it is still running great for my friend. I have found that 85% of the time I run the exact same gcode on my SO4 as I do my SOPro. They really are pretty close, so the good news is that there isn’t a bad option. When I’m trying to maximize a larger batch I can run the Pro slightly harder and/or get slightly better finish.

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