@Gerry I was trying to decide how to respond to @WillAdams response, but you said exactly what I was trying to decide how to convey.
@WillAdams If you want us to use an E-Stop rather than rely on the controller software perhaps that should be included with the machine, I’m comfortable wiring one in myself, but I am sure there are plenty of people who would not be comfortable doing so…
Maybe the ‘Stop’ button should be renamed ‘Exit Job’ or something like that to cut down on the confusion…
@downrazor11 I think that there is clearly room for improvement here from a UI standpoint, this is a solid option in addition to what @Gerry suggested.
Pause causes the router to power off, if you have BitRunner, raise the router up and wait. If you then hit Stop the Shapeoko will home and wait and the job is aborted. So pause does not abort the job.
To me the sequence seems logical. If you simply want to check on progress you hit pause. If you have an emergency you power off. The reaction time for pause and stop is too slow for an emergency.
I recently showed my Emergency Stop Switch with a magnetic on and off switch. I have been liking the setup. The emergency switch is for immediate stops. The on/off magnetic button are good if the lights were to go off because the machine will not automatically come back on if the lights were to come back on unexpectedly. If you lights go off and you are in the dark first thing you do is to find a flashlight and try to determine the cause of the outage. Is the outage just one outlet, just your shop or your whole neighborhood. When you go to investigate most people will not hit the power on the Shapeoko and while off investigating the outage the power suddenly comes back on your Shapeoko will come back to life and the router will most likely turn on. Although it may not be moving it can could be causing a dangerous situation because while you are busy else where the machine is sitting there spinning.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07HWRVPRR/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
An emergency kill switch may not be in the plan - because everyone wires their stuff differently and you want to kill both the router and the shapeoko…
But there is little reason to not provide an INCLUDED Feed Hold. It’s literally a couple of dollars in parts and eliminates this confusion…plus, it works even when the software pause doesn’t (like during a bitsetter sequence).
Hey Guy…what switch is that? I had one that looked like that, but it was only rated to 1/3 HP and it would not work with my router. I ended up using the paddle type (red, below) and a momentary (green below) for my pause switch:
@GJM Valid point on people wiring things differently, I agree with you though regarding the feed hold button.
@gdon_2003 Wiring in a proper E-Stop that kills the power to both the router and motion system just jumped to the top of my “To-Do” list. I’ll definitely check out your thread on how you chose to do so.
It’s nice to see I’m not the only one left scratching their head with the lack of included hardware to pause/stop the machines motion. Especially given the ambiguity of the UI in the control software. I would argue it’s a safety issue not to have any included means of halting the motion of the machine without “yanking” the power cord or trying to hit the power supply’s toggle switch. The overall dismissive answer to my original post is somewhat alarming to say the least.
I agree that the ideal workflow is logical, the problem is the ‘Stop’ button is 1) red-ish and 2) shares nomenclature with things people would look to press in an emergency.
If the function of the ‘Stop’ software button is not to ‘stop the machine’ but instead to ‘exit the currently running job’, then the button should display something other than ‘Stop’.
EDIT: I also wanted to add that your emergency-stop button/enclosure is outstanding!!! When I get around to making that (and ‘FeedHold’ button) I can only hope mine looks half as good as yours…
I added the link to Amazon in the post above.
Guy:
A link to the e-stop I built for my Shapeoko XL. This also requires a reset after a power loss.
Bill
Actually…I think that was the device I purchased…it did not work for my setup…not sure why. The 1/2 horsepower seems to be right on the edge for the equipment.
The product description is confusing. On one line it states 1/2 horse power and also states 16 AMPs.
So according to google (its on the internet so it cannot be wrong) they say 1/2 horse is equal to 367 Watts.
If the device is rated for 16 AMPS then 16A X 120VAC=1920 Watts. However most electrical outlets are rated for 15 AMPS so 15A X 120VAC=1800 Watts. So 1800W-367W=1433Watts capacity left.
I have been using this for about a month without any problems. Since the rating for 16 AMPS is less than the estimated 11 AMPS of the Shapeoko and Dewalt Router I feel it is safe. I have several safeguards in place, the breaker on the circuit, the device itself, the power strip breaker that is attached to the switch and the size of wires I used to wire up, 14 gauge, so I feel confident that my setup is safe.
I admit that the 1/2 HP is an anomaly but 16 AMPS is 16 AMPS.
WillAdams said “Because we don’t want folks to depend on a screen or cursor or pointer for an emergency situation.”
As someone who has frantically clicked the onscreen “Stop” button to no avail while shredding a workpiece, I’ll say it was an interesting design choice to put a fake decoy ‘stop’ button on the screen while also not providing an authentic hardware safety stop button. I guess the idea is to teach Newbies in a dramatic and painful way to not rely on software in an emergency. I actually didn’t learn that lesson. The lesson I learned was to quickly hit the ‘pause’ button first. The need for a hardware safety stop button never even occurred to me.
Obviously this was a traumatic event for John. But changing the way the software/hardware works for the reason that you did not know how it worked is not always practical.
If the Stop button were available without first pausing think of how many times people might hit Stop and the machine would then initialize possibly ruining their project. Unfortunately there are no guarantees in life. Many people make them but most are not going to help you when you are being bitten on the butt by an alligator when you are trying to drain a swamp.
The vast majority of Shapeoko users may never need an emergency stop button. Once you have needed one you see the importance of it. I saw the possible need and added one to my system. Before your situation obviously you did not see the need for one. Not every situation can be accommodated when building machines and software with the confines of a budget. They could fit the Shapeoko with air bags in case you stumble and hit your head on the corner but it is not practical or economical. I am not making light of your situation but planning your shop is up to the individual. I have 4 fire extinguishers in my shop and Carbide3d did not supply any of them with my Shapeoko but I realized the danger of fire in my shop and added the equipment I thought met the needs of the danger.
They call them accidents for a reason. The event is unintended but usually avoidable with proper fore thought and planning. Unfortunately not every accident is avoided but training and planning can mitigate an accident and lessen the damage but not always avoid the accident.
There is inherent danger running woodworking equipment and you must accept the risk to reap the reward.
@gdon_2003 It could be as simple as changing the separate Start and Pause buttons to more of a Pause/Play setup since you only have one state active at a time anyway. Then rename Stop to something more descriptive about ending/exiting the current job.
In the interest of KISS - I use a Kreg router switch, which may as well come with the machine! It doesn’t have the benefit of staying off after a mains power cycle, but with a BitRunner that hasn’t been a concern of mine. If you’re on the fence about implementing an estop for some reason, this is a great solution that is designed for routers.
Raising feed hold to a properly documented feature seems like a great idea, though some easily accessible guides to proper workflow should be made. Read: I shouldn’t have to come to the forum to find them, make this stuff a single flow diagram linked from the software.
Your solution with the paddle power switch is six of one and half a dozen of another. The point is that you have looked ahead and realized that there is a need for an immediate full shut down and implemented a solution. The exact means of the full shut down are not as important as the need to have an effective solution in place and ready to go. Your method is as good as any other. My magnetic switch goes one step further with a power outage which I admit is rare. But I dont want to have a power outage and leave my Shapeoko running when the power comes back on.
Several years ago I bought a new house. The garage only had one power outlet for 120. I added a 220 for my table saw and had a light or two and my dust collector running on the single outlet. Luckily I was not cutting at the time but the breaker tripped on my single outlet. I was standing in a pitch black garage with a 3 horse power table saw running, IN THE DARK. After this happened I went and bought an emergency light that comes on when the power goes off. I also got busy and made myself more outlets so not have the power outage happen again.
The point is I realized there was a need to make a change and I made the change. It seems that you also realized you needed a change and you made it. This is how we progress and move forward. Intelligence guided by experience.
Guy, it wasn’t really traumatic… it was more annoying and frustrating because I was trying to click the plainly labelled stop button in a rush and the button wasn’t responding. I’m not following your logic however. Will was making the point that as a safety issue, people shouldn’t be fumbling with a mouse while something dangerous was happening. Ok, provide the hardware stop switch. You are suggesting that someone might accidentally click a software stop button unintentionally and ruin their project and that they should be protected from their clumsiness more than someone accidentally trying to really stop the machine in an actual emergency. I guess I would tell them, in your words, that there are no guarantees in life.
Anyway, my solution wouldn’t necessarily be to have a working software stop button, but just don’t display an inactivated software stop button. Of course I never tried to click it before my incident, because like you said it might ruin my work. But then how does one know that it isn’t active until after you’ve had a situation that needed a stop and only then you find out that it isn’t what it looks to be. I would be just as happy to have only the pause button visible, which does the function most are probably looking for, and only after pause is hit does the stop button appear–and works.
As for the fire extinguishers, airbags and alligators. We’re probably veering a bit off course. The goal isn’t to prevent every possible problem. The goal is to use the company’s extensive knowledge and to use feedback from customers to prevent the most likely problems AND to at least not introduce dangerous or surprising interactions by misleading or surprising UI design. I’ve designed quite a few UI in my day and as you know, every possible customer mistake will be made. The designer’s job is to anticipate the most likely mistakes and to take feedback from users when a UI has accidentally set a trap that is causing many people to fall into.
Totally agree with @JohnK.
The feedback from new users, or users who use a functionality for the first time is very valuable in my opinion. Because it is a feedback on the intuitiveness of a piece of software.
And it is usually different from that of those who ‘learned’ the software.
What’s more important? If I understand right, CC/CM is supposed to be an easy to learn CNC software package, to get new user started off quickly. So intuitive usage is important and safety critical aspects and the feedback on them should be taken very serious.
Yes…there are no guarantees…but for programmers, there is no additional effort to make the button invisible rather than disabled - when it can’t be clicked - which would serve the purpose of not presenting a “decoy”. Or, if that violates some sacred coding practice: At a minimum, override the browser’s disabled color and put in a very different looking button when it’s disabled - so no one would ever accidentally try to push the button when it can’t be pushed.
This is such common sense, I’m not sure why it’s needs to be argued!
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