Problems with v-bit corners

So, I tightened up the Z-belt a bit, re-adjusted eccentric nuts on the Z carriage, and then ran a calibration.

My measurements probably aren’t super accurate since I just have a cheap plastic dial caliper. I tried a few ways of mounting it, but ended up just making marks on the extrusions and measuring them afterwards. I zero’d it out all the way up - then moved 90mm down. it was nearly a whole mm off, about 90.9 - so I used one of the calculation spreadsheets floating around and adjusted $102 - then ran the same test we’ve been using.

Was really hoping for a big difference, but I didn’t see much of one upon close inspection. A is the first time we ran this test - B is after Z calibration.


I probably need to calibrate X/Y as well, but not sure if it will help.

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@cbbo Did you try entering the angle as 88 or 89?

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I had not tried that yet - we went larger (91 degree) but didn’t go smaller. Here they are:

89 Degree:

88 Degree (sorry, the cut ran into a previous test cut I did on this piece of scrap)

Better? Hard to tell. Maybe 85 or 80? Just to see if something changes.
What bit (manufacturer, part #) are you using? Have you tried a different one?

I didn’t notice much of a difference at 88 or 89, but it’s definitely not any worse. I thought maybe I saw a little curve at first glance, but it’s not as noticeable in the pictures.

I already ran a triangle test at 85, 90, and 95 - and got the expected results… the weird corner problem persisted through all degrees. I can try it with these shapes though, willing to try anything at this point.

I’ve mostly been using a Whiteside 1550 (60 deg 1/2 inch), I’ve measured it and it seemed damn close to 60. I have tried 60 and 90 degree half inch Freud bits as well… (the Freud 60 is the one with the wide tip issue).

Just throwing this out there, but I doubt it is the cause…
Could it be a accel/decel issue? I had an old laser that would have wobbly lines in corners until I slowed the accel/decel parameters.
Like I said, I doubt this is it, but maybe worth a try?

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I think your problem is a combination of:

  1. Your cutter angle not being correct, and then
  2. The physical impossibility of perfectly cutting a wall of specified angle with a wrong cutter, no matter how much you try to correct in software (at least with V-carving).

Part 1: my thoughts about your cutter angle not being right. I grabbed a copy of CAMotics to simulate your gcode with stock removal instead of tool movement lines in space. Let’s see how it looks with a perfect 90 degree cutter:


(Looks good to me.)

Next, for illustration’s sake, let’s run the same program, but with a drastically wrongly-cut cutter (60 degrees actual, vs expected 90 degrees):


See that? The same flavors of geometric aberrations as we’re seeing in the physical examples. I think your cutter is less drastically wrong - 89 degrees, or something like that.

Part two - I don’t think you can perfectly correct in software for a wrongly-made cutter, at least using a V-carve pathway (hence why your adjustments don’t work). It’s a physical impossibility with angles. This part requires more of a mental exercise, because I can’t illustrate it with software, the way I can above.

Basically, let’s say you have a hilariously undercut cutter that’s maybe 5 degrees, instead of 90, and essentially looks like a needle. Without a 4th axis, and using only the movements that you’ve seen V-carve put out, is it even possible to cut nice 45 degree walls? I don’t think you can. No v-carve strategy can accomplish this. You end up doing a central plunge, maybe doing a lap near the bottom, then trying to run the tip up the corners at a 45 degree angle, but you’ll never clean up the walls between. You need to move to something like a stepover milling strategy (indeed, a 0 degree cutter is an endmill), which is kind of the antithesis of the V-carve technique.

I don’t think it’s possible to generate a v-carve pathway that perfectly produces your desired result, with your current v-carve bit. You can kind of fudge it, but the cost is the aberrations you’re seeing.

Sorry. I’d be happy to be proven wrong.

(Edit: a more concrete example of point two: holding a sharpened pencil perfectly upright, can you make a perfect inverted pyramid in clay with v-carve techniques? I can’t. The best I can do looks like the examples above.)

Edit again: I think there’s a philosophical/intent question here, too. The purpose of V-carving is to achieve a cut of a certain width at the surface, without having to do multiple passes (depth and everything else be damned). If you need it wider, you go deeper. Sometimes we can abuse this to get nice mathematically and mechanically clean results, but that’s the exception and not the rule. This thread is the rule.

For sake of completeness, a 95 degree cutter (problems become very apparent very quickly with overangle cutters - probably why we see so many underangle ones):

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I agree with number one, but I don’t think number two really matters here. Regardless of the carve angle, a square should be square (hope that came out right).

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“Square”, the 2D shape, or inverted truncated rectangular pyramidal with specified wall angle?

As long as the wall angles in software match the true angle of your cutter, you’re gucci. Violate that and you’re gonna have a bad time. (Cf. this entire thread).

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Square.
The original file was done in V-carve. I can’t open the file, but I’m assuming (I know the saying) that the

was drawn as a square. I get what you’re saying about an 88° v-bit not being capable of a carve angle of 45°, but I think the OP is looking for a perfect square at the surface. If this started as a 3D model with defined wall angles, you’re correct that the software can’t compensate for the end mill’s angle being off.

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Yes, it’s just a simple square vector. I also am doubtful it’s an issue with the angle of the bit - not only have I measured them with a protractor (they all looked perfect) but I’ve run various cuts specifying different angles and the problem in the corners didn’t seem to be affected - but the problem shown in Bob’s image does become apparent the further from the true angle I get, which is expected. I don’t get curved sides when specifying the true angle, instead I get straight sides that have an outside offset at each corner, and that offset matches the width of the bit as it makes the clearing cut up to define the corner.

And you are correct, my goal here is just to get an actual square at the surface. I’ve tried 3 different v bits so far, and it’s happening with all of them. I recently acquired 1/4" 60 and 90 degree whiteside bits, so I may try those this weekend…

Alright - hopefully this demonstrates things well - test run with a brand new 90 degree quarter inch v-bit.

The corner cut offsets are more apparent because of the smaller tool diameter. With a half inch v bit it was difficult to cut full depth shapes big enough to show the issue - as the bit diameter was nearly half the full width of any single side.

Now with the smaller diameter bit, you can clearly see that the clearing corner cut is the only one that is offset, in both the full depth and flat depth toolpaths.

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One observation, since I haven’t had enough coffee to come up with anything better…

If it were a tramming issue, I’d expect the problem to manifest only on whichever directions the spindle was tilted towards… but it seems the same in all directions (this is one reason I did different orientations of the shapes, also to see if it was specific to an X/Y direction).

Going to check my set screws on the stepper motors today and see if anything is loose.

So you created a V Carve pocket, if you use a profile cut of the same depth and use a the same Vbit, do you get the same issue?

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V-carve pocket - yes, but using VCarve pro’s VCarve toolpath option, which I guess is a little different than a true pocket toolpath with a v-carve bit.

Here is a simple profile toolpath, same 90d .25 inch v bit as the last post - .1" pass depth so it did two passes to get .125" depth (which matches the flat-depth of the top row of vectors from the other tests).

Looks good to me.


And a comparison with a ruler edge:
Profile:

V-Carve (from my previous post):

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Interestingly, now that I look closer, I do see a slight issue in the first photo… but only on when it’s travelling in a certain direction. Maybe it’s the shadow highlighting it, but it does seem to show up on the surface as well.


I thought maybe those corners lined up with the start points of the cut, but not exactly. The blue circle on the left most shape is the start point for that shape, but for the triangle it’s the top corner, not the circled one.

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That last picture has me thinking, if this could be a deflection-related issue. Are the areas you circled in blue the points where the tool plunges in the material for those profile cuts ?

When cutting a square profile, if tool deflection is large due to the various cutting parameters, you can easily get a small bump right where the tool started to move after completing the plunge to cut depth.

What is the stickout length of your V-bit in your collet ? Maybe try with the Vbit pushed as far as possible into the collet and compare.

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also if it is deflection, running the same toolpath completely back to back should have the 2nd one potentially cleaning things up a bit

(and one thing I would try is like halving the inch-per-minute moving speed. you may burn the wood a bit but it will reduce forces)

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As @julien said, deflection due to stickout could be an issue, it should go as deep as possible to fit both the collet and minimum required for the cut. Maybe a 3 pass would also help.

The plunge point matches up on the square, but not the triangle. On the triangle, it’s the top point.

The v bit in this case is 1.5" tip to butt, and I had it in the collet roughly 1", so about a quarter inch of exposed shank and the rest is cutting surface. Is that really so shallow for deflection to occur, on MDF of all things? This is at 40ipm feed, 15ipm plunge.

I’ve already done a ton of tests slowing down the feed rate and pass depths with pictures in this thread - not really excited to do more unless it’s something novel.