Seem some resent inquirires for a tool changer. Here another vote for Shapeoko to hopefully go down that path. They are adding better spindle support with there new VFD. Plus with the added expansion of the pro 4x4 table. It would be nice to have the option to hand a tool changer off the front or back of the system. I have had the Shapeoko since 2016 and do quite of bit bit changing and I would fork over the expense. I think carbide3d has a unique oportunty to keep moving forward. They got over their fear of the ball screws and modernized. Look at OneFinity, they are coming out with a 4x4 solution along with support with MASSO controller which will enable their system to do a tool changer. Honestly Carbide Motion need a face lift in my opinion, too many tabs to jump to get to what you need to do, but that for another thread. My vote from a 6 year vetran of using my XXL, please make sure you are looking at a possible solution for a tool changer. Expense or not you need to option to keep relevant in the space. Create it and I bet you, people will buy.
Another though on this. Carbide3d, start telling us your future. As a maker that is growing I need t know I can have future upgrades, like the tool changer etc. If you don’t express that people are looking for ways to grow and if there is no plan, other systems look to have plans to grow their system. Competition is growing in this space. Nice to see carbide3d go to ball screws, but with pain staking almost regret and only becuase you had too. Tell us a plan on future plans. I know you lover your in house Carbide Motion but why not MASSO controller, offer the flexibility, just a though.
Why not MASSO controller? They would have no control over it. Nothing worse than to build a machine around a proprietary controller, and then not be able to obtain the controller because of supply issues, or the supplier changes format, or goes out of business.
As for future plans? Why give their competitors a heads up on what’s in the pipeline, that would be like a football team announcing to the spectators what their next play is going to be, with the other team listening in.
Future plans, what is so secretive about a say for example a tool changer, its not like the tool changer hasn’t been invented, really. If they said they would be eventually looking at a tool changer or other future plans. That alone give Carbide3d an advantage, give customer and future customer the idea that they can grow their CNC not be stagnate and wished they purchased another machine. Inovation is the key. If they tell me that Future plans are a tool changer, make me feel good that I can grow my shapeoko cnc rather than have to purchase something else down the line. We aren’t playing football they are a business growing their future and giving a little hint to what they have planed is not giving competors an advantage. It give client customer the re assurance this company is growing and I can grow with them.
Why not MASSO, why not, companies do it all the time, introduce systems / off the shelf parts to get started. Then develop their own in the back ground then ditch the work around. Flexibity and growth is the key. If everybody else comes out with a more feature and tools and you don’t inovate, you get left behind, options are the key. They did it with the Z axis, they found a gentleman that made the ball screw z axis, work with him. I think he works for carbide now, but now they have an awesome ball screw Z axis, inovation and bringing in third party.
My semi-informed opinions on adding MASSO. Opinions are my own and based on my experience running the FB group. They tend to be a lot less experienced than the members here on average. And there are a LOT of them there.
A - As someone who has run machine centers in aerospace, I really want a MASSO myself as it is more akin to the industrial machines I have ran in the past. I’d love multiple work offsets, tool offsets and wear compensation, a pendent and other similarities to industrial machines that give my kinda-advanced self, more control. My fear as someone who runs the Facebook group is this: people who have no experience running an advanced controller, but who absolutely HAVE to have the best of the best of the best (to quote Will Smith in Men in Black) will buy it and be incredibly dis-satisfied because it is too complex. Yes, a company like C3D will tell people to get GRBL for the less knowledgeable, but people won’t. I actually include myself in that group as historically I jump in with guns-a-blazing and figure it out as I go along after sleepless nights. 
Then their opinion of C3D is sullied because they didn’t take informed advise. I know the response to that will be “Well, that’s on the customer!” But those people are loud and relentless.
B - I have no idea how companies are selling machines with MASSO in the same kinda price range-ish…well actually I do. 
The price for the controller, steppers with closed loop, and the rest of the system is ~$2,500. So on machines that are comparable (price-wise), that means they spent ~$1,500 on the mechanicals of the machine. And that is without a real frame. If C3D used a MASSO controller with their far superior motion system, actual frame, and actual work-holding, it would likely add $2,000 to the cost of a SO5. Then that takes them out of the price war, even though it is not an apples-to-apples comparison.
I dunno. I want something like MASSO. Hopefully with C3D’s programmers and branching off their own GRBL, some of these features can be added. I wish I could see in the future as I’m excited. 
As far as spilling the beans on the future…it is frustrating, but what company in their right mind does that? I mean the companies that have added MASSO didn’t tell anyone until release. That’s a way to frustrate the public and the company as all calls/messages/emails until the release will be when…hurry…I bought something else while waiting. I know…I’ve been on the company side of that and it made life hell to the point where we did the same thing. Be intentionally nebulous about the future roadmap so we could work on it in peace.
Last one in a row.
Tool changer:
In my personal opinion, once you get there, you’re talking industrial, safety measures like light curtains, etc.
I have seen what a tool holder gone loose at 7k RPM does to a 0.125" steel enclosure and bullet proof glass. People came from across a 100,000 sq/ft building with other machines running because they heard the anarchy. From a safety perspective a tool holder at 24k RPM is scary. One time your compressor looses pressure and the clamp loosens…one time a wood chip on a taper keeps it from clamping right is all it takes to send something 50 ft across your shop…if you have 50 ft.
To do it right would mean:
*A retractable cover that keeps out chips.
*An industrial compressor…not my used Kobalt rattling away on the corner of the shop. This also includes a drying and filter system.
*A system that would shut down the machine if a loss of pressure was sensed.
*A system that locked down if any safety feature was compromised until the issue was fixed.
*A safety zone that likely included an enclosure, or barriers that would stop flying mass at the angles it could hit someone.
*A knowledge of how to set the position for each individual tool holder.
And I’m sure many more things I don’t know about. But just my experience being in an industrial environment where the company tried to keep people safe. Although in my opinion more for litigation reasons than caring.
Carbide is going in a great direction, they have progressed, even admitting ball screws for years they didn’t not want to do. They just need to keep inovating and tossing out teasers in how they will improve their product. Yes complexity gets greater with additional accessories. It is either they go cold and get left behind or they progress forward. As hobbiest get more involved, they either stay hobbiest or grow with their machine. Growing is wanting more power and flexibility. I am a small business owner, time is valuable. I know I want to maximise my time and go with what is flexible and will grow with my business. Hand down , knock on wood, I have had my issues but my XXL belt drives with a ball screw Z axis is doing great, since 2016.
Masso or not what ever they do, keep inovating and bring new things to the system. Carbide3d was close minded on ball screws, I am just saying keep an open mind on what to add next because its getting busy in the market for hobbiest systems.
I do commend Carbide3d for there new 4x4 PRO, looks great, and a lot of though has been put into it. One thing I don’t see in their new 4x4 PRO and they may address it, it Tramming. Tramming is a big deal, hopefully they are making it easier to tram your system.
My outside assessment is that they weren’t close minded on ballscrews. They were wanting to execute them in the proper way. Just using budget minded, readily available ballscrews with poor tolerances and inferior wipers is worse than belts. Sounds like they had to search and specify with a supplier to hit a reasonable cost point and good tolerances. I can relate to that. In one place I worked we started to transition to overseas manufacturing of aftermarket car parts. Mostly because we couldn’t get a US supplier to get them fast enough. But that took several years to implement as well as a hybrid of overseas and US production to get things right. So I know the nightmare of hitting a workable price point when you’re picky.
I agree innovation is key, and I argue that they have done that more than most. They just didn’t slap on an existing controller (Buildbotics, MASSO, etc). I think that’s why they’re working on their own GRBL. And hopefully the teased accessories are things that closer match more feature-full systems while still making for a good user experience.
I never had trouble tramming the Z-plus/HDZ/HDM Z axis. I mean it sometimes took an hour or two, but that’s a small investment in time, and I never had to re-do it unless I did something that changed the system.
I dunno. These are just my personal thoughts from someone who has been on both sides of a similar business that served an enthusiastic customer base.
This is why lawn mowers now have a graphic caution sticker saying not to grab the deck when running unless you want shorter fingers lol.
99% of hobby cnc users have no idea how fast things can go south with tool holders coming loose or parts getting slung by what are considered low power desk top machines. I have 1/4" polycarbonate panels that I don’t know if they will be enough to stop an iso20 holder at 24k rpm. I will be adding locks in the future so the doors can’t swing open on impact now. I for sure wouldn’t trust an 1/8" polycarbonate panel to keep me safe and those running non impact rated acrylic windows are rolling the dice for sure as that stuff does not take hits well. It will split and in some cases send shards flying.
I hope there is a Carbide Atc in the works for future buyers but time will tell. They did elude to the 5 Pro having room on the sides for “Other things” and the open track at the back would house a retracting wine rack tool station with a dust cover well.
If they do go Atc I can see the customer service team cringing at the thought of having to walk 100s if not 1000s. of novice users through trouble shooting common mistakes with the added complexity of Atc added to it.
It’s one thing to slap an Atc spindle on a machine and make easy sales but it is a completely different thing to tackle after sales support of such a product where a large portion of it’s client base consists of mainly novice users.
I agree to find out that we no longer offer an update for size for Shapeoko3 was a shock; not like we have money all the time. I was told to sell it and buy a new one! That was a bad user experience for me. I would save and buy a tool changer? Absolutely but not when you keep flattening us older machine users, Selling my machine for how much? When there are no updates available no one wants it!
Absolutely agree with the need/want for a tool changer as an option across the product line.
I’ve wanted a tool changer since my $200 desktop machine. Most of my “Crap” moments happen I’ve changed bits and forgot to check everything.
I’ve also invested time, money, etc with Carbide that I would prefer to keep. I simply like how Carbide works & I pretty much can get it to do what ever task I ask if it. I
I don’t want to go to another platform to get a tool changer!
IMO, I don’t believe the two of us are the only ones who would purchase a Carbide Tool Changer option if it became available. More like if “you make it, we will buy it” or “stop refusing to take my money!”
There is also the thought of “Do you want to be the market leader or the market follower?
If everyone else is doing it, that just makes you a lemming. C3D creating there own controller makes them a leader. It may not be the path you want to follow, but nobody says you have to. When I bought my Pro4, I bought it for the mechanical bits, and when the time comes that I finally ge fully fed up with the gerbil approach to cnc machining, I’ll put in a PMDX breakout board, a set of Geckodrives, and run Mach3 on an old windows pc.
Seems to me that other companies in this market have over come all of these points successfully.
I am in a delima now I have a Shapeoko 3 XXL old school with belts. I did upgrade the Z to the new ball screw which made a world of difference. I need to upgrade at some point and like the new PRO 4x4 but I am looking at upgradability. So I am waiting for now, may upgrade to the new VFD spindle, but that maybe the last upgrade unless I see better options.
There is only 1 in the price range that has added ATC.
Several other companies have bought an off-the-shelf controller that is capable of it, but do not have an ATC system. There’s a BIGGGG difference. You’d have to design and make your own rack, purchase the tool holders, add the mechanicals, buy a good compressor, buy an ATC spindle, and then…you’d have ATC.
Sure. Companies that offer ATC currently either ignore the safety and quality aspects in order to keep their price down and offer significantly less support or the machine costs many times anything that Carbide 3D makes with similar capability. It is just a trade off. When you are planning out products at scale, it gets significantly more complicated. No other company I know offers the same level of support for free while still having reasonably priced machines. While I do think it would be cool to see an ATC from Carbide 3D, I doubt it will be any time soon if ever. It just doesn’t fit with their current market. If you want or need an ATC, you are not their target customer. To properly do an ATC with all the required safety features at a decent quality, you are talking about a minimum of $5k without any tool holders which makes no sense to add to a machine that costs less than the ATC setup. You could make an argument for the HDM but I think it would need a few upgrades in order to make it worth it. Once there is an HDM with an enclosure, automatic gantry squaring and LinuxCNC control, then you might have a good canditate for ATC. It will also cost somewhere around $15k.
I currently have essentially the same machine at the standard size. I did upgrade my machine with linear rails which is a big improvement over v-wheels. I added a DIY VFD spindle upgrade and have loved it. I highly recommend the upgrade. Plus, you could carry it over to the new 4x4 if you ever decide to get it.