Upgrade spindle dilemma

CNC Machines Shapeoko
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I’ve decided to bite the bullet and upgrade to a water cooled spindle. I have a standard Shapeoko. Main reason is noise reduction. I am a hobbyist and not in need of speed or heavy use. I know that sound reduction can help, but you also have to cool the unit so that leaves an opening for the sound to get out.

Looking for an 800W 110V spindle. Aliexpress has them and I could get it in 2-3 weeks. But, they say to text them if you want 110 volt, which I did. Two days later and no response, doesn’t bode well for support if they don’t respond to a sales message. Have not found anyone in the US that stocks the 800W spindle and VFD combo.

So looking for something that can arrive in a reasonable time ( I’m not patient ). Price and delivery wise I can go for a 1.5KW 110V spindle as they are more readily available. This would require changing the mounting bracket to 80MM. From the photo it looks like the bracket will have to be modified to fit on the standard Z plate, not a big deal I guess. The one I’m looking at is: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-5KW-WATER-COOLED-KIT-SPINDLE-CNC-110V-SPINDLE-MOTOR-INVERTER-CLAMP-PUMP-PIPE-/274103480988?_trksid=p2349526.m4383.l4275.c10#viTabs_0

So what should I do :slight_smile:

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Oh man, you must have just missed the last HY 800w 110V kit available for Prime shipping. There are some 1.5kw spindles that are 65mm, but I’m not sure how available those are right now.

I bid on a 1.5kw spindle and won it, not realizing it was an 80mm body until I confirmed my bid. I ended up buying the C3D 80mm HD mount.

If you’re looking to get something in 110v and timely, I don’t really see any other options other than the 110v 1.5kw 80mm.

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Do you have the old belt drive Z axis or the Z-Plus on your machine?

The spindles definitely get rid of the router whine but cutting noise and dust extraction noise will still be there. I wouldn’t go back to listening to the dentist drill noise from a router.

I’ve found it very useful to be able to run larger collets, 8mm, 10mm, 1/2inch etc. It really opens up the choice of tooling and using things like edge finders for setting zero with. You may find some of the 80mm spindles run a larger collet so that’s worth looking at.

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Just checked the C3D site, that mount seems to be only for the HDZ. And yeah, I checked Amazon again and they only have the 80mm 1.5kw in prime. And that mount adds another $80

Thanks

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I got the mysweety 1.5kw 65mm from Amazon but it needs a lot of extra things to set up.

The VFD needs programming, the spindle plug is ceramic and smaller then other aviation plugs that makes it a pain to solder a proper shielded cable to.

The spindle does not come with the ground pin wired so you have to open up the spindle an add a ground. Also get a EMI filter for the main power input for extra protection they are about $18.00 on Amazon

The pump is garbage as is the tubing so be prepared to buy proper tubing and a pump. It also needs a radiator with a fan or just buy a cooling unit for a co2 laser. Do NOT use a COPPER radiator or the SS will react and cause corrosion.

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Now that’s a handy hint

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Oh I just re-read… you are going about it with the standard Z. The 80mm body is going to add even more heft. No concerns?

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I was planning on using a gallon of RV antifreeze and just keep circulating it… Nice hint about the SS and copper reacting!

I’ve looked at kits with just the vfd and spindle but there weren’t any specs on what size tubing to use.

I figure for grounding I could just clamp a wire to the housing although my existing spindle clamp is already grounded. I have added ground wires from each part of my SO3 to a common point and then to the 110V ground. Seems to have helped.

There is a 1.5KW 110V kit ( last one) in prime and the mount is 55mm hgh, have to go and measure if that will fit my plate

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I’ve just got an old 20 Litre “RV water jug” which I made a bigger hole in the top of with the pump sitting in that.

For the pump I grabbed a 12V “solar water heating circulator” pump from eBay as the flow / head curve for that pump wasn’t a horrid mismatch to the flow / head through a spindle. It seems we’re looking at 2-3 litres per minute at somewhere between 3 and 6 metres head depending on the length of tubing running to the spindle. That’s longer than you expect because of the drag chain routing.

The hose is common PolyUrethane (PU) tubing used for air lines and things. Typically around 6mm internal diameter (1/4" in the Queen’s units). If you run a long run of this to the spindle it will substantially increase the work for the pump so using some adapters to jump up to 10mm or 12mm ID tube close to the spindle would help.

The CW3000 chiller thing does seem to be the easiest bet though, once the always on fan is modded.

The HuanYang VFD is a noisy little git, have a search for HY VFD Fan on this forum and you’ll see the things people do to silence the always on noisy fan in the VFD (although this VFD is not rated for a dusty environment and should be in a box anyway). Alternatively you could get a spindle and then a less cheapo VFD from Delta or somebody like that with vector control, a temperature controlled fan, RS485 that actually works and better remote keypad connections.

For the mount, you can always drill and tap new holes in the back of it. What you’re interested in is flat machined mounting face properly aligned with a cleanly machined bore for the spindle.

As for the Z axis, Z-Plus at least, again, lots of threads here on the fights people got into trying to swing several kg of spindle on their belt driven Z.

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I just looked at the Delta VFD007EL11A. Seems like it would do the trick. Also wants dust free. I saw it on-line for about $175. Neat, it has a manual written in English and seems understandable :slight_smile:

For cooling you think a 5 gallon ( 20 liter ) bucket would be sufficient or will I need additional cooling? Probably my longest run would be an hour at a time. A Hy 800w 65mm spindle on Amazon is $145 so then the pump and connectors. Seems like just a little more money then buying the kit.

I checked the current spindle clamp on the SO3. It is about 28MM high. The clamp out of the kit is more like 55. There are some screw heads in the way of the larger clamp so I’d have to relieve the back of the clamp so it fits tight.

Sounds like it’s getting more complicated by the minute.

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There’s a fair amount to installing a spindle over a regular router, the BLDC Makita thread is well worth a read for an alternate option.

The standard belt driven Z axis is, IMO, not suitable for a water cooled spindle, it wasn’t designed for anything this heavy. I’ve not used the Z Plus but apparently it’s a lot better, I’m running the HDZ which has no trouble.

Once you have the spindle and VFD you have to get the coolant lines and spindle power cable to the spindle, which means upgrading the drag chains, or just add new ones to keep the noisy spindle power cable away from the Shapeoko motor and signal wiring, those drag chains were £10 per metre on eBay;

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For cooling, the thing is, you just won’t use much power on the spindle, @gmack has done lots of calculating and built an excellent spreadsheet which shows that most of the time we’re only going to see a couple of hundred watts of cutting power on this class of machine. I don’t even have a cooler, just about 10 litres of water and anti-freeze in the big plastic jug and it’s not even got warm so far, but I’m in England where it’s cold. The CW-3000 is available on eBay pretty cheap and it’s a tidy little solution of pump, reservoir and a radiator all in one box which is easy to fit and wire up.

For the VFD the main thing is screened motor power cable and a noise filter for the input to the VFD or you’ll have the risk of lots of USB disconnect fun. So far as I can tell the Delta drives are pretty good and, as you say, have a manual in actual English. There’s nothing much wrong with the HuanYang except they are very aggressively built down to a price and that means cheaping out on things, you get what you pay for here.

Spindle clamp, bigger tends to be better in terms of holding the spindle straight and square, I started off with a cheap eBay spindle clamp on my AMB Kress spindle and fought with it for ages, should have got a properly machined one to start with.

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Liam, I see you have your spindle set up with dust collection. Did you make that yourself? How well does it work? It looks like it’s mounted to the spindle so the height would change with the Z movement - correct?

I just bought a 1.5kW spindle that is 80mm and I also bought the 80mm spindle clamp from Carbide 3D but neither is installed yet. Currently I am using the SuckIt dust collection and that won’t mount with the 80mm spindle. I’m actually considering selling the spindle and mount and instead, buying a 65mm unit so I can use the existing mount with the SuckIt

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Ah,

Now there you’ve hit on an issue…

There is the PWNCNC boot which @CrookedWoodTex I believe put me on to, which is a great, open source, design.

I thought there was a set of mount adapters for the SuckIt for the HDZ but I’ve not got one so I printed my own prototype.

As you correctly identify, I went with the 80mm spindle dust boot design of just clamping onto the spindle which means I have to tweak the boot up and down each time I change bit or workpiece which is a pain. The main feature I wanted when I did that design was the transparent PVC curtain so I could see exactly what the cutter was up to when cutting. That gets chewed occasionally during a job and it currently looks like a dog’s toy but the PVC is cheap and I consider it consumable.

The challenge for a Z independent boot on the HDZ is that when Luke designed the HDZ he managed to grab us a chunk of extra X axis travel over the regular Z axis and all the Z independent dust boots I’m aware of need to use up some of this space for their supports. If that’s not an issue then I’d probably ask some of the PWNCNC users about that boot as it looks pretty good to me.

The one I have is 3D printed and designed to have a 50mm PU antistatic hose just jam onto the nozzle, it works OK and I definitely wouldn’t run without it, but I’d like to make or buy something better.

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The continuing saga:

I’ve located a VFD and 800W that is in stock in IL. It is a Chinese VFD, I kinda wanted to but the Delta. They caution to not go beyond the current rating of 4.2 A. I tried to get the specs on the 800w 110v motor and they sent me a drawing saying the 220V unit draws 5 A. So if it draws 5A at 220, it must draw 10 A at 110. Sounds fishy.

I could do a 1.5KW motor / VFD but then would have to upgrade to the Z-Plus. Adding $$ for just a hobby.

I thought if I bought a lead screw / anti-backlash nut and a coupling I could convert my Z axis to be more powerful. In my mind I would have to make an aluminum bracket to hold the existing motor vertical. Add a bracket to hold the anti backlash nut. Space the existing rails out a little to make room for the lead screw nut. And finally make a new bracket for the limit switch. Use the current stock S03 to mill the aluminum. Or just wait and do it all when the Z-Plus is in stock.

Looking at this kit: https://www.amazon.com/NW-Length-Backlash-Spring-Loaded/dp/B06XXRXQVN/ref=sr_1_19?dchild=1&keywords=lead+screw+anti+backlash+nut&qid=1594998530&s=industrial&sr=1-19

I am just a hobbyist and only looking to reduce the screaming noise of the router.

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The stock z is not going to handle that spindle well at all and the Z+ will struggle with the weight because it uses a lead screw not a ball screw. Build an enclosure and you will have a much quieter experience that is easy to build. Use sketchup to draw up a design “its free” and have lowes cut your plywood and 2x4s to the right sizes. Add a few hinges and some poly-carbonate so you can have a window and put some thick foam or car audio mat under the feet to prevent vibrations transferring to the enclosure.

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I’d agree with Donovan,

If you’re just after reducing the noise then start with an enclosure and then do the expensive stuff like VFD spindles. There’s a thread where I made some suggestions based on tested recording studio sound control technology for making a Shapoko quieter.

I would wait for the Z plus to come into stock rather than trying to build my own (unless I owned a milling machine).

As for the spindle specs, the 220V and 110V versions of the spindle may well be quite different, double the current is a decent ballpark but I’d want to see the spec. A 110V VFD will not be usefully able to drive a 220V spindle and a spindle with excess current draw will likely cause the VFD to trip out in overcurrent protection mode. Also, in case you’ve not tripped over it yet, VFDs that run on 110V but drive 220V have a step up conversion stage on their input and are considerably more expensive.

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OK, I’ve played with sound proofing before and it is not all that great. I have some Dynamat I was thinking of putting it on the sides of my enclosure. It is currently just Lexan. I put my hands on the side Lexan to see if it would reduce the noise, it didn’t.

I thought about acoustical foam but feel in a wood shop it will quickly fill up with dust and lose its properties.

Plus if I make a sealed enclosure I then have to put a fan in to cool it. Great place for noise to leak out.

BTW, The Chinese spindle says it’s 110 volt and the drawing they sent in lieu of specs said it was 220 volt. Hence not ready to purchase it.

I read the link you sent. Thanks - got me to thinking. I have a sheet of 1/2" fiber board sound deadening. I could all that to the sides, and back. Maybe put the dynamat on the outside of the lexan on the sides with the sound board on the inside. Or maybe sandwich the sound board between the lexan and the dynamat. Maybe set the machine on 1" Styrofoam. Put baffles on the air intake and exhaust so slow escaping sound.

I guess I first have to find my sound meter. Thanks for your input.

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18

Yep,

Isolating and containing sound is way harder than you expect it to be when you start, and the wins get smaller and smaller the more you do too so the encouragement of the initial quick wins rapidly fades away.

If you’re looking to get rid of the high frequency whine of the router then that’s going to be a lot easier than killing the lower frequency sounds of cutter on workpiece etc.

Corning 703 is popular in the US if the fibreboard doesn’t work out, the foam is mostly transparent to audio.

If you want to cover the fibreboard, insulation mat etc. to keep the dust out then any cheap, heavy duty fabric should do. Just be a bit careful about flammability of what’s inside the enclosure.

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