I own one and use others, I’m simplifying a bit but I stand by my overall point that a laser cutter is a drastically simpler machine than a CNC router/mill.
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With every new endeavor/skill, there is the problem of terminology.
Anyone who is confused should research that and learn the specifics of language used in the field which they are learning.
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I don’t see that any of the terminology used was obscure.
Yes, folks buying and using the machines should be selected for to be that group of folks who can read and understand the owner’s manual for the trim router and the machine and abide by and adhere to all safety guidelines as well as the checklist:
We will gladly work with anyone who wishes to learn to use the machine, providing them with any information or clarification which they ask for either here, or at support@carbide3d.com, and will afford folks the chance to do their own customized didactic sequence.
Hey Will…Are you saying that there is nothing more that the company should do as far as education, documentation, etc.? What you guys have now is what you feel is all that needs to be done?
I am saying that anyone who needs any sort of assistance should write in to support@carbide3d.com and we will do our best to assist.
Based on what we see there, additional content will be made as is deemed appropriate by the folks who decide that sort of thing.
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I think that Carbide3D goes above an beyond what most tool manufacturers provide when it comes to education. It is honestly the main reason I selected the Shapeoko as my tool of choice. When I saw the 1 year warranty with the 30 days warranty covering my own mistakes I figured there was no one else offering anything even close. The option to email support, call or do video support as well was very enticing. Pair all of that with https://community.carbide3d.com and https://cutrocket.com/ sites as well as @WillAdams being so active on Reddit as well as this forum. Also the various Youtube videos from multiple providers but mostly @wmoy you can’t get much better support. I have seen multiple instances of staff providing step by step tutorials in this community along with fixed Carbide Create files for people.
Yes it would be nice to have a place where all the things that I needed to search for in one place but the support available from Carbide3D is phenomenal. I think it also is difficult as Will Adams said since everyone is at a different starting place and has very different needs. I think that anyone starting out has to be willing to ask some questions and search a little too. Most people starting out seem to get the help they need from this forum or support if they are willing to ask the question and provide the details needed to answer it.
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I appreciate everything everyone has done to try and help but I’m done and I’m leaving this group. I’m tired of being talked down to because I’m no expert CNC operator so good luck to you all.
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What are we looking for here, guys?
I teach middle school (12-14 year old). I teach them to ask specific questions to receive the answers they want.
As long as I’ve had my SO3 (2015), I’ve never seen a specific question go unanswered.
Yes. They will not show you how to design a part from scratch and generate toolpaths.
@DennisG Do you have a question?
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Not anymore thank you fro the help
Dennis I have been following the thread. Do you have a Woodcraft near you? I know the Woodcraft that I go to had a weekend class on CNC from designing a project to cutting your project. Not a Shapeoko but would be the same workflow and process.
Do you have a maker space near you? Most spaces have classes or guys that would be willing to help you. If I was near you I’d try to walk you thru it.
CNC is more complex than a laser even though they are both considered CNC. Don’t give up, once you get the workflow down it will get easier.
I jumped in feet first, bought some MDF and just started cutting things, if it didn’t work I sat and assessed what happened and tried again. Then I got the hang of it.
I had one project that was so simple but bit me 3 times before I got it right. Bit broke, a letter broke, forgot to set z. It was just a bad day. It’s a hobby so I take my time and do it when I can.
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@DennisG I don’t want you to go either…and I think that your input is SO valuable because it surfaces a major point.
Internet research is both wonderful and problematic. On the upside, everything you can want is out there, with good instruction and accurate info. The trouble is, there are also a bunch of awful videos, incorrect information, and flat-out bad practices — and the onus of filtering those falls on the viewer. Plus, if you really have little knowledge of the CAD and modeling, even knowing what to look for becomes problematic. Additionally, training requires a curriculum. You build on prior knowledge. There is no such organization in the videos.
I’m also not conflating training with support. Carbide’s support is TOP NOTCH. If you ask a question, you get a good answer - and they go above and beyond to do it. But that’s not training…and proper training might just reduce the number of questions!
Training (course curriculum and documentation) is a professional skill. Not every software developer or engineer is capable of it - and, unfortunately, many underplay its importance believing that those who can do, can teach…and that’s just not true. It’s an investment that requires an appreciation for the value of training your clients. Professional software companies (like Adobe, Microsoft, Intuit, even Apple) make those investments for a reason. Hardware companies tend not to do it as well…however, even most hardware products come with pretty good user manuals that cover more than installation and set up - focusing on general usage. Even my table saw comes with a user’s guide that covers usage (and safety, and usage trouble shooting). Why not my CNC?
If you could learn simply by watching videos, there would be no professional golf instructors! Count the number of videos there are on correcting your slice or hitting “ball-first”. There’s a reason you go to a professional for real training. Another example from my prior life: There are also a bunch of really bad software coders out there, who don’t know what’s in their code because they cut the snippets from stuff they found online (that works) without learning or understanding what’s really behind it.
This discussion is important…or it’s not. It really depends on who the demographic for the product is. If the demographic is for folks who want to tinker, experiment, research, and trial and error to learn - then full stop, we’re done. But if the goal is grow a usage base of CNC enthusiasts from people who are interested in getting precision router control to make components for larger projects as part of a production process, or to make and sell crafts at a reasonable price, then there is some work to do.
I was just poking around and found the Vectric user guide and think it’s an excellent example of a well-written doc that describes every parameter on every screen, walks through examples that build on the skills learned in previous chapters, and points the reader to approved, supported online resources - including video tutorials and help files. From what I can see, you really don’t need to go anywhere else to get up and running (those who use their products can confirm or deny that).
I’m not saying that Carbide needs the same level of documentation, after all, CC is free. But clearly, Vectric recognizes the value of embracing the demographic of inexperienced users and helping them to utilize their product the way it is best used.
I too am really sorry to see @DennisG go, but I can understand his frustration.
Ive asked a lot of questions on here and, generally I can get an answer that allows me to move on - but sometimes I really wonder if I’m speaking the same language.
The use of jargon can demonstrate arrogance and is far from helpful - because those who ask ‘newbie’ (a term which, in itself, is patronising) questions are, almost by definition, very new or new to the hobby and will unlikely understand that kind of language.
Also, we are not in a student/teacher environment - most of us being quite grown up with those years far behind us. When I started this hobby, even with a distant engineering background, I had no real idea what I was letting myself in for. In fact, my original plan was just to knock up a few signs, but researching the different machines and the capabilities of them made me realise what a great opportunity this could be to ‘make stuff’ and learn along the way - so I ditched the idea of spending £150 on a ‘toy’ CNC machine and decided on a ‘grown-up’ machine from Shapeoko - and the learning curve just keeps on going upwards.
I don’t really care if I embarrass myself asking stupid questions on this forum - I’ve done it enough times - because I think this is where those questions should be asked. Sometimes I wonder what people think before they reply (or not) to a thread, but providing clear, concise and jargon-free explanations, or even just pointing out places where relevant information can be found, is really helpful. Being arrogant, flippant or patronising is not, and I’d ask those of you who want to do it like that, not to bother.
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Carbide Create is still in development:
https://blog.carbide3d.com/2021/layers-in-carbide-create/
so is a moving target in terms of documentation. That said,
should be pretty much up-to-date, and suggestions and corrections there would be welcome (send me a PM).
and we specifically disclaim offering on-site training:
https://docs.carbide3d.com/general-faq/onsite-training/
There have only been a couple of occasions when folks have found the custom step-by-step tutorials unworkable — one person described the sort of adjustments necessary for preparing clip-art so as to make it ready to cut ( Converting line art for drawing ) “garbage”, in another instance, a tutorial was immediately invalidated by an updated feature in Carbide Create.
The best way which we have at this time for folks to get assistance w/ Carbide Create when they find the online video tutorials don’t suit their needs is to contact us at support@carbide3d.com and we will work up a custom tutorial which meets their needs, i.e.,
If anyone needs to do anything in Carbide Create which isn’t covered in the documentation which they can’t find in the above, write in to us at support@carbide3d.com and we’ll do our best to assist — if this requires creating a custom tutorial, we will. A lot of terminology is explained in the above posts, and we will of course do our best to help people understand any phrasing or concepts which they do not understand.
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This has been an interesting thread. In particular, I find it fascinating how different people learn in specific ways.
With respect to the question regarding available material that C3D provide, I think they provide plenty in their own way. Their way is a little decentralised and erratic, but personally I see them as a tool vendor, and just as I wouldn’t expect Ducati to teach me how to ride a motorcycle, I don’t expect much other than basic operating instructions. The rest is on me.
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Neither would I, but you’d still need to prove competency by passing a test and being given a license to ride it legally.
Folks who want to tinker, experiment, and research, are among those who are most successful — when they encounter difficulties, they send in files or projects which they are stuck on, and we send back step-by-step tutorials which they then work through — if there are any further difficulties, we work through them, experimentally, one step at a time.
I simply don’t see how a person who cannot understand and follow the instruction manual for a trim router can safely operate the machines.
Folks need to be able to read, understand, and adhere to the Machine Operating Checklist at a minimum:
and to use proper safe operating standards and personal protective equipment as is appropriate to the tooling used and the material being cut.
Anyone who doesn’t agree with that or understand that is referred to our warranty:
https://carbide3d.com/policy/warranty/
and should compare it with those of other CNC manufacturers.
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We do attempt to teach folks how to use a CNC:
Anyone who has difficulty with any of those tutorials, or doing anything else with the machine should write in to support@carbide3d.com and we will do our best to help them learn.
Correct. But you don’t get licenses from Ducati.
Agreed Gerry…a hardware company isn’t going to teach you the soft skill. Of course, the fact that software is included - and some of which is no longer free - makes me think of Carbide as more than a hardware company.